[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by Nevadastars

Those are my thoughts EXACTLY!

As a woman said just days after his passing, "I never met him, but he was someone who came into my living room every Sunday. I will miss him."

I feel the same way.

[SpaceCadet]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

Who would you list as one of the top drivers of all time?

Statistically, Richard Petty still stands far and away the best of all time. With something like 200 wins, I don't think anyone has come close. I can't remember who has the second most all time wins, which is around 100, maybe Pearson. I think Sr. had 76 wins. I believe DW is somewhere in the top 5 all time winners with 83 or 84. Sr. and Petty both won 7 cup titles, again, I think, I'm not positive. The only active driver who comes close to these guys is Jeff Gordon. He may have only one or two wins to go to tie Sr. I don't think he'll ever win 7 championships. I believe somewhere in the early 60's Petty had 27 wins in one season. I'm not sure where I heard that, but I remember thinking "how is that even possible!" So, in answer to your question, one of the best, actually the best is Richard Petty. The best active driver, statistically, is Jeff Gordon. I only use statistics to form my opinion, just like in any other sport. I don't take attitude or personalities into account. The numbers aren't subjective, they just tell it like it is, which I like. While I like Jr. and I think he has many more years and many more wins ahead of him, I don't think he's the same caliber driver as the driver's mentioned above. But this remains to be seen and he'll be fun to watch, for sure.

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by SpaceCadet

Statistically, Richard Petty still stands far and away the best of all time. With something like 200 wins, I don't think anyone has come close. I can't remember who has the second most all time wins, which is around 100, maybe Pearson. I think Sr. had 76 wins. I believe DW is somewhere in the top 5 all time winners with 83 or 84. Sr. and Petty both won 7 cup titles, again, I think, I'm not positive. The only active driver who comes close to these guys is Jeff Gordon. He may have only one or two wins to go to tie Sr. I don't think he'll ever win 7 championships. I believe somewhere in the early 60's Petty had 27 wins in one season. I'm not sure where I heard that, but I remember thinking "how is that even possible!" So, in answer to your question, one of the best, actually the best is Richard Petty. The best active driver, statistically, is Jeff Gordon. I only use statistics to form my opinion, just like in any other sport. I don't take attitude or personalities into account. The numbers aren't subjective, they just tell it like it is, which I like. While I like Jr. and I think he has many more years and many more wins ahead of him, I don't think he's the same caliber driver as the driver's mentioned above. But this remains to be seen and he'll be fun to watch, for sure.

SpaceCadet,

Interesting. You've obviously done your homework. Yes, Petty is considered one of the best.

Let's say that a driver has only won 3 races during a season, yet finished second in all other races. Does the driver who won 6 races that season, yet had a less than desirable finish for the rest of the season make him better than the driver who won 3 races and finished second in all others?

I'm not arguing with you at all. I find this topic fascinating. Petty and Sr. are legends. Who else will attain that status? Gordon? Perhaps.

I remember when Rusty Wallace wasn't happy that the driver who won the most races wasn't necessarily the champion. In my opinion, it is consistency that makes a great driver.

When I was 7 years old, I already knew the 43 and Richard Petty. As an adult, the first race I went to was Dover. It was Petty's final year. He was given the pole out of respect, but quickly fell back. I think Harry Gant won that race.

If, in fact, Petty had 27 wins in one season, that's amazing!

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

So tell me, what's the fascination with Montoya? I stopped following open-wheel racing when the "split" happened, and I have no idea why there is so much coverage/discussion about him.

from NASCAR's perspective he can be a huge boon to their fan base

not only from the open wheel side (where Tony Stewart also came from).....but also from the Latin American and Mexican side

Montoya has a HUGE following outside the US.........and that means money for NA$CAR........we all know its all about the All-Mighty Dollar

[clutch]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

Gordon - 475 races, 75 wins (15.8%), 214 top 5s (45.1%), 289 top 10s (60.1%)

Wow, glad that you posted these stats; it shows that Gordon really in a class above the rest even tho many wont admit it

I think this year will be back to 'business as usual" for the 24 team

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by simple simon

from NASCAR's perspective he can be a huge boon to their fan base

not only from the open wheel side (where Tony Stewart also came from).....but also from the Latin American and Mexican side

Montoya has a HUGE following outside the US.........and that means money for NA$CAR........we all know its all about the All-Mighty Dollar

Yes, I remember Stewart driving an open-wheel race (I think it was the Indy 500) back when I followed open-wheel, then drove a Cup race the same night. Of course, that was back in the day when Tony had some anger-management issues, and I wasn't a big fan. From my perspective, he has improved.

Too bad he was out of the Top 10 at the end of last year. He did very well once out of the race for the Cup.

I'll keep my eye on this Montoya guy. What side of open-wheel was he on? I was a huge Rick Mears and Danny Sullivan fan. I think they both left before the split of the haves-and-have-nots. I don't follow it anymore. I did see a "real" Indy race at Loudon back when Mario was still driving. It was amazing! Those cars stick like nothing I've ever seen. It's like they were stuck to the end of a whip! I miss it.

Yup, it's all about money, but I follow for the sport and the drivers! I'd love to be a spotter!

Thanks for the insight on Montoya. We'll see how he does ...

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by simple simon

worst thing to ever happen to NASCAR

I've been saying for a long time to alot of my friends and have stated it once or twice on here... that I feel that most of the changes we have seen today(not all) would not have happened if Big E was still alive. JMHO

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by Quality88

I've been saying for a long time to alot of my friends and have stated it once or twice on here... that I feel that most of the changes we have seen today(not all) would not have happened if Big E was still alive. JMHO

Agreed. Sr. always wore an open-faced helmet, and had burns to his face because of it. If he would have just worn that Hans device, he probably would still be with us.

I also think the roof flaps are an amazing addition to safety. I've seen many cars literally fly through the air prior to installing these flaps. I think it was Talladega where Rusty went flying and flipped over and over again. I thought for sure he was dead. Thankfully, he survived.

[trollmc08]

Originally Posted by clutch

Wow, glad that you posted these stats; it shows that Gordon really in a class above the rest even tho many wont admit it

I think this year will be back to 'business as usual" for the 24 team

I'll admit it Clutch, but I all so admit I still don't like him, sorry.

[Mike24]

Oh man, I don't know where to start on Jr being over-rated. But I will give a nice dose of my opinion.

Jr is the most over-rated driver in NASCAR history, and we can go as far as saying in Auto racing history. The guy is NOT THAT GOOD as people make him out to be. He dosen't have the drive, he got popular because of Dale Sr's death, which just saddens me because it was something he couldn't control, and I know Sr wanted Jr to earn the popularity, not get it handed to him. Jr has not been that impressive as people make him out to be. He has 2 wins combined in 05-06. Now please, tell me that being the most popular driver, 2 wins combined in 05-06 is not over-rated?

Until Dale Jr wins a championship, he is too popular not to be considered over-rated.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by clutch

Wow, glad that you posted these stats; it shows that Gordon really in a class above the rest even tho many wont admit it

I think this year will be back to 'business as usual" for the 24 team

Yep, I think so too. This is the first time since 2004 Jeff has started out with consecutive top 10 finishes, and of course in 2004 Jeff finished 3rd in points. Lets hope that the "3rd" is changed to "1st" in 2007.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

Well, it's an interesting issue.

Junior - 257 races, 17 wins (6.6%), 69 top 5s (26.5%), 109 top 10s (42.4%)
Gordon - 475 races, 75 wins (15.8%), 214 top 5s (45.1%), 289 top 10s (60.1%)
Stewart - 286 races, 29 wins (10.3%), 108 top 5s (37.8%), 169 top 10s (59.1%)
Johnson - 185 races, 23 wins (12.4%), 67 top 5s (36.2%), 111 top 10s (60.0%)

As much as I like Junior, his winning percentage, top 5 percentage and top 10 percentage are all considerably lower than those of Gordon, Stewart and Johnson. Does that mean he's overrated? I don't know for sure. But the numbers are what they are.

Good numbers their Lefty. Notice how Jr is last in every stat except for top 5's, which is he is next to last in that. Just proves my point again, too much attention, not good enough stats to back it up. I don't hate Jr, but with the attention he gets, he better have the stats to back it up, and he dosen't.

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by Mike24

Oh man, I don't know where to start on Jr being over-rated. But I will give a nice dose of my opinion.

Jr is the most over-rated driver in NASCAR history, and we can go as far as saying in Auto racing history. The guy is NOT THAT GOOD as people make him out to be. He dosen't have the drive, he got popular because of Dale Sr's death, which just saddens me because it was something he couldn't control, and I know Sr wanted Jr to earn the popularity, not get it handed to him. Jr has not been that impressive as people make him out to be. He has 2 wins combined in 05-06. Now please, tell me that being the most popular driver, 2 wins combined in 05-06 is not over-rated?

Until Dale Jr wins a championship, he is too popular not to be considered over-rated.

Oh, Mike, Mike, Mike ...

Jr. is the most over-rated driver in NASCAR history? Hello? He's "not that good"? Again, Hello?

Jr. had his own following prior to Sr.'s death, and certainly has more drive than any driver. His popularity wasn't handed to him. Unlike Gordon, Jr.'s "likeable". Where's Kerry? He tries, but just can't cut it regardless of his last name. It's only a matter of time before Jr. wins the Cup.

Obliviously, you're a Gordon fan. Defending Gordon against Jr. only makes Jr. more respected.

[LSC9901]

Here is a random Google search of current drivers and their rankings. Jr isn't first which most can agree with. At 12th he is far ahead of last place Rookie of the Year (according to some) Juan Pablo Montoya. He is also ahead of a few past NASCAR Cup Champions. He is without a doubt over rated by the media, but he can without a doubt stand on his own accomplishments. There will be more to come.... rest assured.


Driver Rankings

Updated: Feb. 20, 2007

1. Carl Edwards Edwards has been perfect at California since he finished sixth in his first attempt. Since then, he's swept the top five in four races.

2. Matt Kenseth Kenseth has only one finish outside the top 10 in his last seven attempts on the two-mile tracks, and that was a 13th last year in a rain-shortened Michigan race.

3. Kyle Busch Busch got off to a slow start at California, but then he won in fall 2005. Last year, he swept the top 10.

4. Denny Hamlin Hamlin ended the 2006 season with a five-race streak of top-10s, but his momentum was momentarily stalled last week in the Daytona lottery.

5. Kurt Busch Busch had one of the cars to beat last week until he ran into the back of a rapidly slowing Tony Stewart and sent both to the showers early.

6. Kasey Kahne Kahne was nearly perfect on the two-mile tracks last year. He won two races and finished fourth in the others.

7. Jeff Gordon Gordon has five victories on the two-mile tracks. He stumbled for a while, but is back in top form with a three-race top-10 streak.

8. Mark Martin Martin doesn't seem to have lost any momentum in his switch from Roush Fords to Ginn Chevrolets and he nearly one the sports' biggest race.

9. Tony Stewart Stewart will start the season in a deep hole after finishing 43rd last week in the 500. At California, he's been erratic, but when he's on his game he's hard to beat.

10. Kevin Harvick Harvick was about to retire with an overheated engine last week until a rash of cautions saved him. Now he goes down in books as a Daytona 500 champion.

11. Greg Biffle Biffle earned three victories in a span of four two-mile track races in 2004 and 2005. In fact, seven of his last 10 races on these tracks have been top-10s.

12. Dale Earnhardt Jr. Earnhardt may still be stinging from his crash at Daytona. Last year, he his worst finish on the two-mile tracks came in this race, but that was an 11th.

13. Jeff Burton Burton was consistently strong on the two-mile tracks last year except for a blown engine in the fall Michigan race.

14. Martin Truex Jr. Truex spent a lot of time at the head of the pack last week until he was finally caught up in a late-race accident.

15. Jamie McMurray McMurray has an average finish of 20th in his last three starts on the two-mile tracks, but he's finished on the lead lap in his last 10 attempts.

16. Jimmie Johnson Johnson has finished on the lead lap in his last nine attempts, but fewer than half of them have been top-10s.

17. Reed Sorenson Sorenson finished 21st in both races last year, but he was in the top 10 in both Michigan races.

18. Clint Bowyer Bowyer got off to a good start last year with a top 10 at Daytona and a top 15 at California. He tumbled at Daytona and hopes to rebound this week.

19. Elliott Sadler Evernham showed his prowess on the big tracks last year with Kahne and Riggs. Now he wants to put Sadler near the top of the charts.

20. Ryan Newman Newman has several strong runs on the two-mile tracks, but none of them have come in the last seven tries.

21. Casey Mears Some of Mears' best results have come on the unrestricted, intermediate speedways, and the Hendrick Motorsports power under his hood should keep that streak alive.

22. David Gilliland Gilliland got his career first top-10 last week after dominating parts of Speedweeks. It won't be his last, but this sophomore still needs time to grow.

23. Johnny Sauter Sauter was one of our dark horse picks for the season, and last week's 16th-place finish proved our point.

24. Brian Vickers Vickers failed to make the show last week when he crashed in his qualification race. The entry list is smaller this week, but 54 cars is still a full house.

25. Joe Nemechek Nemechek was given the third Bobby Ginn Racing car because he qualifies so well. He should make Sunday's show with ease.

26. Paul Menard Menard failed to make the show last week, which puts him in a hole for ROTY balloting. NASCAR discards about one-third of the results, however, so he can rebound.

27. J.J. Yeley Yeley made pre-rookie starts here in 2004 and 2005, finishing 41st and 39th. He was eighth in this race last year, and then slipped back into his winless ways at Michigan.

28. David Stremme Stremme was possibly the strongest sophomore in last week's race, and he barely missed the top 10 when the field was frozen in the last 100 yards.

29. Ricky Rudd The drama of the Daytona 500 is behind him, and now Rudd can focus on racing on the unrestricted, intermediate speedways.

30. Sterling Marlin Marlin has always been one of the premiere restrictor-plate racers. He's no slouch on the two-mile tracks either, but he still has to qualify on time.

31. David Ragan Ragan was in the right place at the right time last week. He finished fifth, but had an average running position of 34th during the race and used up a lot of luck.

32. Scott Riggs After failing to make last year's Daytona 500, Riggs charged back to finish in the top 20 in this race. He also finished that strong in two of the next three two-mile track races.

33. Jeff Green Gene Haas had one of the most improved teams last year, and time will tell if he keeps that momentum going into 2007.

34. Jeremy Mayfield With seven fewer teams in attendance this week, it will be easier to make the Auto Club 500, which will allow some of the teams that missed the 500 to earn much needed points.

35. Dale Jarrett Toyota was less than impressive in their debut. The learning curve will continue to be steep in the opening races of 2007.

36. Juan Montoya Montoya had a rough time hanging onto the draft last week. California is a new challenge, but he has some track time here in the Busch series last year.

37. Michael Waltrip After receiving one of NASCAR's harshest penalties in history, Waltrip enters the second race of the season with negative points.

38. Bobby Labonte Labonte has not finished in the top 10 on a two-mile track in his last 10 attempts, and he failed to earn a top 15 last year since joining Petty Enterprises.

39. Robby Gordon Gordon will have the energy and focus on his home-town track, but he is still trying to learn how to make his brand new Fords go fast.

40. Ken Schrader Schrader had a good run going last week before Dave Blaney blew through the pits and into the side of his Ford.

41. Scott Wimmer Richard Childress Racing will pull out a fourth car this week to keep Scott Wimmer's reflexes strong.

42. Kyle Petty Petty finished in the 30s three times in four races on the two-mile tracks last year. Worse still, it's been 35 events since he had a top-10 on this style track.

43. Dave Blaney Racing for two different owners during the past two years, Blaney has failed to finish in the top 20.

44. Tony Raines Raines has never finished in the top 20 on a two-mile track. His best result was a 24th in the 2003 GFS Marketplace 400 at Michigan.

45. Ward Burton Burton has the skill to bring the No. 4 back up into the top 35 in owner points. Once there, he has the star power to get this team back into the limelight.

46. Mike Bliss Bliss had a great run here in 2005 running for Gene Haas, but the remainder of his races ended outside the top 25. Now he is in less powerful equipment and will work hard to qualify.

47. David Reutimann Reutimann barely found the speed to make the show last week, but he was anemic in both his qualification race and the Daytona 500.

48. Regan Smith Smith failed to qualify last week in what was supposed to be a one-off entry in the No. 39. He'll get a little more experience by trying to qualify alongside Mark Martin this week.

49. Brandon Whitt Whitt hails from El Cajon, and the hometown advantage might just be enough to get him into the show. Once in, however, his lack of power will hurt his results.

50. Kevin Lepage Lepage is another driver without a single top-10 on either two-mile track, and he's failed to qualify for two California races since 2001.

51. Derrike Cope Cope attempted to make three of the four two-mile track races last year. He failed to qualify once, quit early to save his engine once, and finished 34th in the final attempt.

52. Bill Elliott Elliott's best hope for making the show will be for Jarrett to make the race on time. Neither of these two drivers is likely to find that kind of speed, however.

53. Kenny Wallace The Barney Visser team is a testament to hard work. Every time they make a race, fans of dark horses should applaud.

54. A.J. Allmendinger Allmendinger was the slowest driver in his first attempt last year at Texas, and he was the first driver out of his qualification race for the Daytona 500.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

Oh, Mike, Mike, Mike ...

Jr. is the most over-rated driver in NASCAR history? Hello? He's "not that good"? Again, Hello?

Jr. had his own following prior to Sr.'s death, and certainly has more drive than any driver. His popularity wasn't handed to him. Unlike Gordon, Jr.'s "likeable". Where's Kerry? He tries, but just can't cut it regardless of his last name. It's only a matter of time before Jr. wins the Cup.

Obliviously, you're a Gordon fan. Defending Gordon against Jr. only makes Jr. more respected.

no, it's not because I'm a Gordon fan. I see Gordon haters all the time, EVEN JR FANS, admit the fact that Jr is over-rated. Jr being over-rated has nothing to do with Jeff Gordon.