[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

Well, it's an interesting issue.

Junior - 257 races, 17 wins (6.6%), 69 top 5s (26.5%), 109 top 10s (42.4%)
Gordon - 475 races, 75 wins (15.8%), 214 top 5s (45.1%), 289 top 10s (60.1%)
Stewart - 286 races, 29 wins (10.3%), 108 top 5s (37.8%), 169 top 10s (59.1%)
Johnson - 185 races, 23 wins (12.4%), 67 top 5s (36.2%), 111 top 10s (60.0%)

As much as I like Junior, his winning percentage, top 5 percentage and top 10 percentage are all considerably lower than those of Gordon, Stewart and Johnson. Does that mean he's overrated? I don't know for sure. But the numbers are what they are.

Point is well taken but put him up against the other 38 +/- regular drivers in NASCAR and look at what they did their first 6 years. Were there better drivers ?? YES !!! Were there drivers who were less successful in the first 6 years ?? YES. Are there current drivers who, in more years in NASCAR, have not done as well ?? YES. He is not the best there ever was and may never be the very best ever but much better than average and not over rated.

Originally Posted by 7in07

LOL...not too tired at all.

Ehhhh ... I hate it when facts are available and not utilized ... even if I am tired !!!

[simple simon]

c'mon now.....we all know in 6 years Montoya will be making Jr look like a rookie

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by simple simon

c'mon now.....we all know in 6 years Montoya will be making Jr look like a rookie

As I have stated many times before... I am not against Juan Pablo. If he improves my sport of choice I'll be tickled pink. The proof will be in the stats. Right now in cup he has a 39th and 40th place finish. I'm not ready to give him the ROY award yet.

[Nevadastars]

Originally Posted by gordons#1fan

The truthful answer is hell YES! Why? Well that is for you to decide. All i know is i am sick of all the attention he gets as the sports fav. What has he ever done? NADA.

[Lefty Noob]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Point is well taken but put him up against the other 38 +/- regular drivers in NASCAR and look at what they did their first 6 years. Were there better drivers ?? YES !!! Were there drivers who were less successful in the first 6 years ?? YES. Are there current drivers who, in more years in NASCAR, have not done as well ?? YES. He is not the best there ever was and may never be the very best ever but much better than average and not over rated.

I guess I'm trying to offer a different perspective... for someone who doesn't follow NASCAR too close, the four guys listed are pretty much "The Big Four" -- the drivers everyone knows even if they know beans about racing. Is Junior a very good driver? Absolutely. But he is overhyped by the media and by the promotional coverage he receives? Maybe, just maybe, a little bit?

Again, let me say that I have nothing against any of these guys. Just doing statistical analysis.

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

I guess I'm trying to offer a different perspective... for someone who doesn't follow NASCAR too close, the four guys listed are pretty much "The Big Four" -- the drivers everyone knows even if they know beans about racing. Is Junior a very good driver? Absolutely. But he is overhyped by the media and by the promotional coverage he receives? Maybe, just maybe, a little bit?

Again, let me say that I have nothing against any of these guys. Just doing statistical analysis.

Ok, guys and gals--

Let's define "over-rated".

As LSC mentioned, is it the media? LSC's response to Lefty Noob's knowledgeable statistics was spot on.

Let's consider Bill Elliott. As far back as I can remember, Bill was voted "Most Popular Driver" year after year. Was that based on his driving skills, wins, or his likeability. I'm betting on the latter of the three. Dale Sr. was voted "Most Popular Driver" only once that I am aware of, 1998, the year he was killed. I don't even know who the winner of this title is these days.

Are we questioning a driver being over-rated by the publicity they get?

Who's the best driver ever? Who knows? I'd say Sr. would be in the top five at a minimum. Love him or hate him, he made some moves that no one else ever has or ever will. Jr. is still a young buck. Will he be a legend like his dad? I don't know. His brother, Kerry, also races, but is not successful regardless of his heritage. Jr., without question, is talented.

Who isn't over-rated for one reason or another in this sport?

[SpaceCadet]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

Who's the best driver ever? Who knows? I'd say Sr. would be in the top five at a minimum. Love him or hate him, he made some moves that no one else ever has or ever will.

This is purely subjective. For you, Sr. makes it to the top 5 all time list. That's ok by me, I just can't ever see myself placing him that high on the list. Jr. tries to race clean and owns up to his mistakes. IMHO, that puts him polar opposite of his father. I'm not so sure Sr. would be a candidate for cannonization if he were not tragically killed doing what he loved. It has made him much larger in death than he was in life. What I remember most about Sr. is that he was aggressive and passionate, and sorry, dirty. Admittedly, I liked watching him because he was a true racer. Jr. seems to depend more on skill and integrity to get him through. Unfortunately, he too, is larger than life because of all the hype. I, for one, would not want to be in his shoes under this relentless microscope. He is his own man with his own talent and racing style and I commend him for that.

[Souporscotty]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

Oh, please! Gordon gets way more attention than Jr. Is Jr. overated? No way! If he has a good car under him, there's no stopping him.

Jr. has a huge fan base for a reason. Gordon has a huge not-a-fan base for a reason as well. Do your research. That's all I have to say to you.

If you don't count Winston Cups and only count Nextel Cups, then I guess Jr & Jeffie are tied.

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by SpaceCadet

This is purely subjective. For you, Sr. makes it to the top 5 all time list. That's ok by me, I just can't ever see myself placing him that high on the list. Jr. tries to race clean and owns up to his mistakes. IMHO, that puts him polar opposite of his father. I'm not so sure Sr. would be a candidate for cannonization if he were not tragically killed doing what he loved. It has made him much larger in death than he was in life. What I remember most about Sr. is that he was aggressive and passionate, and sorry, dirty. Admittedly, I liked watching him because he was a true racer. Jr. seems to depend more on skill and integrity to get him through. Unfortunately, he too, is larger than life because of all the hype. I, for one, would not want to be in his shoes under this relentless microscope. He is his own man with his own talent and racing style and I commend him for that.

Good points. Many people thought Sr. was "dirty". I think all drivers can be "dirty" from time to time. Regardless of cannonization, he will always be one of the greatest. After all, he was the "Intimidator" for a reason. If you didn't get out of his way, he'd push you out of his way. There are many other drivers using the same tactics, but they don't get the coverage Sr. did.

One thing I've learned over the years is that if you like a driver, you will defend them no matter what. I'm not one of those people. Jr. has screwed up already this year. He admitted it, and I respect that.

I try to like Harvick because he's in the former Goodwrench number 3, but I don't like his style, nor do I like his antics fighting with other drivers.

Ah, well. Nobody is perfect. Who would you list as one of the top drivers of all time?

[PenelopePitStop]

And another thing!

Love or hate Sr. for his driving style, do a bit of biography reading on him.

Behind the scenes, he helped many, many drivers at the track. He very discretely gave other competitors engines, parts, etc, to help them with no expectation of financial return. He was a good man. Name another driver who does the same.

Jr.'s still on his way up. And I stress the word "up".

[clutch]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

One thing I've learned over the years is that if you like a driver, you will defend them no matter what. I'm not one of those people.

Well your doin a pretty good job for Snr

[PenelopePitStop]

Originally Posted by clutch

Well your doin a pretty good job for Snr

Thanks, Clutch! I like other drivers as well. Every driver, including Sr., had/has their faults. Nobody's perfect!

If I was a driver, good or bad, I'm sure I would be berated!

[wingkey1]

What is his "rating", and who's rating is it? Never seen it.

#5 alltime? #52 all time?

There are statistics (i.e. Total races, number of wins, top 5's, etc.). Is that "rating"?

He ain't done setting his final ratings so - whos really knows. Maybe he is/was. Maybe he was/wasn't.

Do/did some "over expect"? Yup. Nope.

Did not really expect he'd be his Dad. Did not think he was a JG. So far, that's "properly rated".

Be-rated? Oh yeah.

[clutch]

Originally Posted by wingkey1

What is his "rating", and who's rating is it? Never seen it.

#5 alltime? #52 all time?

There are statistics (i.e. Total races, number of wins, top 5's, etc.). Is that "rating"?

He ain't done setting his final ratings so - whos really knows. Maybe he is/was. Maybe he was/wasn't.

Do/did some "over expect"? Yup. Nope.

Did not really expect he'd be his Dad. Did not think he was a JG. So far, that's "properly rated".

Be-rated? Oh yeah.

He maybe over hyped ...not overrated

[clutch]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitStop

If I was a driver, good or bad, I'm sure I would be berated!

Of course like almost everyone, people love to b and moan...... but even Dick Dasterdly and Muttly had fans