[Bob Tanner]

I haven't been able to verify the numbers but I've heard on three separate occasions this week, on NASCAR programs, that the BGN entry list for Fontana this week is only 41. That's two shy of having a full field. I've also heard that of the 41 entries, 23 of them are either Cup Raiders and/or Cup affiliated teams.

NA$CAR's number one SIRIUS cheerleader, Dave Moody, reminded us yesterday to be thankful the Cup teams/drivers condescend to run the BGN Series or they wouldn't have a race at all.

Someone remind me again of how these high-dollar teams with big-name sponsors, high profile driver, or both, are a big help to the Busch Series.

I know. I'll ask Ashton Lewis. Name sound vaguely familiar? He came up to BGN a few years ago with a family-owned/family-run team (You know, the way they used to do it, back "in the day" -God! I hate that term - before the Cup Raiders made BGN the raging success it is today). The family operation was vastly underfunded and had trouble competing but managed some top five finishes. However they couldn't really compete so they folded and Ashton went to Team Rensi, an exclusive BGN team with no Cup affiliations, sponsored by the USMC (UUUHHH RAAAH!). He spent a year there but they let him go last season and replaced him with a much higher profile David Gilliland.

Yeah, I bet Ashton and the Lewis family could remind me of the benefits Cup Raiders and their teams bring to BGN, you think?

[clutch]

I read on somesite that the CTS race this weekend was 2 short

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by clutch

I read on somesite that the CTS race this weekend was 2 short

I read that too, Clutch.

I think the problems are two-fold. First, Because of the personality factor (the media's pandering to the driver fan and not necessarily the race fan) neither the Cup Lite or the CTS have the media exposure Cup does. CTS has no major network coverage and neither have regularly televised qualification or practice.

Generally speaking both minor series' are treated like the proverbial aging "crazy" uncle who lives with you. He aren't seen much, nor is he heard from to any great extent. He is just given enough subsistence to keep him going and the major family just smiles and acts like everything is just peachy-keen. The family, separate of the uncle, is doing just fine and prospering.

The problem is that, as with some "crazy uncles," he isn't as "crazy" as it appears. He's just a victim of abuse, time and has lost the ability to care for himself. He just needs some major neutering and attention paid to him. If he is just left to die, he takes with him a lot of knowledge, experience, talent, and an ability to train and mentor the young ones coming up.

[LSC9901]

This not good information to read about. While it isn't good it's not surprising. Realistically the sponsors that fund the Busch series suffer from the same issue as the lower level racers suffer from. Under or no exposure. I would suspect that some of the sponsors are doing it just barely and then when the team they help sponsor cannot make it into the race it is almost like money wasted. The cup raiders come in and consume half of the field so the marginal sponsor just says thanks, but no thanks. When that happens the little man goes home. If the series should die a slow death NA$CAR has no one to thanks but themselves for allowing the big boys to scare away the little sponsors. Rake it in while you can Brian. The end is in site.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

This not good information to read about. While it isn't good it's not surprising. Realistically the sponsors that fund the Busch series suffer from the same issue as the lower level racers suffer from. Under or no exposure. I would suspect that some of the sponsors are doing it just barely and then when the team they help sponsor cannot make it into the race it is almost like money wasted. The cup raiders come in and consume half of the field so the marginal sponsor just says thanks, but no thanks. When that happens the little man goes home. If the series should die a slow death NA$CAR has no one to thanks but themselves for allowing the big boys to scare away the little sponsors. Rake it in while you can Brian. The end is in site.

One thing I forgot to include in my reply to Clutch was the disparity in prize money. For example, it costs less to field a Cup Lite team and supposedly even less to put a truck in the field. It's less but I admit to not knowing the exact amount. My guess would be, conservatively, around 35%-40% less. (That's just a SWAG)

Now, let's look at winnings: Kevie made $1,510,400 for his 500 win. He got $116,200 for his Cup Lite win. Jack Sprague took home $93,300 for his CTS win.

This figures look frighteningly like the difference between the Cup Series and the rest of the racing series' I and Simon have discussed in another thread. Could it possibly be that IF they took some of the geld from the Cup Series and put it into the BGN and CTS Series' and IF they'd do something about the Cup drivers and teams interloping downward, just MAYBE they might have three healthy series? Just MAYBE?

Naw. Jack Roush, The Felon, Everham, Gibbs and Childress'd NEVER buy into THAT, would they?

[clutch]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

One thing I forgot to include in my reply to Clutch was the disparity in prize money.

Now, let's look at winnings: Kevie made $1,510,400 for his 500 win. He got $116,200 for his Cup Lite win. Jack Sprague took home $93,300 for his CTS win.
Could it possibly be that IF they took some of the geld from the Cup Series and put it into the BGN and CTS Series' and IF they'd do something about the Cup drivers and teams interloping downward, just MAYBE they might have three healthy series? Just MAYBE?

Dang right there Bob, I still dont like the Bushwackers in there but a bit more coin for prizemoney would add some interest and show that Nascar is serious about their minor league

Looking at the prize money for the Daytona 500 and evrybody right down to 43rd made about 300K........thats a lot for coming last

[Bob Tanner]

Week two...California

41 cars started the race...not even a full 43-car field.

Of the 42 starters, 23 drivers have regular Cup rides.

Of those 23, 19 are in the Chosen 35.

The highest finisher not in the Chosen 35 was Regan Smith, who came in 9th.

The highest finisher who wasn't a Cup regular was Timothy Peters who managed a 17th.

Of the top 20 finishers, everyone had a direct Cup affiliation. (Peters drivers for RCR and Stephen Leicht (20th) drives for RYR.) The top finisher with no direct Cup connection was Steve Wallace, #66, who drives for RWI and finished 22th.

It was announced during the ace that Tony Stewart was driving the Gibbs Racing #18 and testing some modifications they had done to the car. These mods were made to improve the handling of the car and they were using Tony to evaluate them to see if they would transfer over to the Cup cars. Gee, that's what I thought NASCAR had five official testing sessions a year for? I'm sure that NA$CAR'll charge Gibbs with a test session for having their Cup driver do some testing, right? (Yeah! When pigs fly!!!)

Quick, someone tell me again about the fairness, and the wonderfulness of turning the BGN Series into the Cup Lite Series! Enlighten me, plueeeeeze!

[Mike24]

Sad, but true.

If Cup drivers don't race in Busch, then we will look at a 23 car field. The cup guys fill up the other 20 spots. And last night we only had 41 drivers enter. Something makes me think NASCAR is gonna ask more of the cup drivers like Gordon, Johnson, Sadler, etc to run some Busch races if they can't get a full field. Busch is just a practice/recess time for the cup guys, but I'm starting to be thankful for the cup guys that we still have a race to watch on Saturday.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Mike24

Sad, but true.

If Cup drivers don't race in Busch, then we will look at a 23 car field. The cup guys fill up the other 20 spots. And last night we only had 41 drivers enter. Something makes me think NASCAR is gonna ask more of the cup drivers like Gordon, Johnson, Jr, etc to run some Busch races if they can't get a full field. Busch is just a practice/recess time for the cup guys, but I'm starting to be thankful for the cup guys that we still have a race to watch on Saturday.

But here is something to at least think about. Now that half of the feild is filled with cup drivers some of the smaller teams have lost sponsorship because they couldn't get into the races. This entire deal is a catch-22 situation. I still think it is a case of NASCAR trying to make more money for the corporation and while doing it the business dies. It will/would take time for the Busch series to get back to where it once was but if they don't find a way to deter the cup drivers they'll be invading ARCA next so they can get some practice time in. Far fetched you say ???? Tell me again how many cars were in this weeks Busch race.

[BringBackWilkesboro]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

But here is something to at least think about. Now that half of the feild is filled with cup drivers some of the smaller teams have lost sponsorship because they couldn't get into the races. This entire deal is a catch-22 situation. I still think it is a case of NASCAR trying to make more money for the corporation and while doing it the business dies. It will/would take time for the Busch series to get back to where it once was but if they don't find a way to deter the cup drivers they'll be invading ARCA next so they can get some practice time in. Far fetched you say ???? Tell me again how many cars were in this weeks Busch race.

Doesn't sound far fetched at all LSC, sounds like reality and where witnessing it as we speak.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

But here is something to at least think about. Now that half of the feild is filled with cup drivers some of the smaller teams have lost sponsorship because they couldn't get into the races. This entire deal is a catch-22 situation. I still think it is a case of NASCAR trying to make more money for the corporation and while doing it the business dies. It will/would take time for the Busch series to get back to where it once was but if they don't find a way to deter the cup drivers they'll be invading ARCA next so they can get some practice time in. Far fetched you say ???? Tell me again how many cars were in this weeks Busch race.

I have one thing to say.

No Cup drivers in Busch races = money stoppage for NASCAR.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Mike24

Sad, but true.

If Cup drivers don't race in Busch, then we will look at a 23 car field. The cup guys fill up the other 20 spots. And last night we only had 41 drivers enter. Something makes me think NASCAR is gonna ask more of the cup drivers like Gordon, Johnson, Sadler, etc to run some Busch races if they can't get a full field. Busch is just a practice/recess time for the cup guys, but I'm starting to be thankful for the cup guys that we still have a race to watch on Saturday.

Sounds like the same rationale I hear from Dave Moody on SIRIUS; Cup teams/drivers are good for the Busch Series!

Personally, I think it's the best thing to ever happen to BGN IF you don't care about having a viable farm system where new drivers can have a logical progression to NASCAR's highest level.
It's fantastic IF the only thing you care about is watching a well-known driver race both Saturday and Sunday.
It's kind of a neat deal to see drivers and team owners who have more money than the Vatican use their technology, experience and resources to take prize money from smaller, less-funded teams who really need it.
It's the epitome of fairness to allow teams to have one more test session, under the guise of a Cup Lite race.

Michael, we agree on some things and on others we don't but we're relatively close. But on this subject, however, we are in complete disagreement. But, intelligent people can always agree to disagree, so be it.

My solution is to increase the prize money for BGN and /or utilize a completely different car or tires or both, to make comparison between BGN and Cup impossible.

If NA$CAR is so damn enamored with its Chosen 35 Rule, use it, as 35 and not 20, in BGN. Change it to "The top 35 DRIVERS NOT IN THE TOP 35 IN DRIVER POINTS IN CUP have a guaranteed starting spot. Then let the top 35 Cup drivers who want an extra test session to fight over the remaining eight spots. As NA$CAR loves to have the announcers spout, a veritable "race within a race."

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by Mike24

I have one thing to say.

No Cup drivers in Busch races = money stoppage for NASCAR.

re: bold above.

Nail hit on head.

Busch cannot financially sustain itself without the dreaded "raiders". At least I guess they are seen as "dreaded". Cannot see this will change, at least in the near term. Intersting that perhaps COT should (for lower cost reasons) have been intro'ed in to Busch. Spec items (vehicles, powerplants) can decrease cost if properly implemented over time and Busch could use this to allow something other than the Hendricks, Roush, Childress, types to play here.

OBTW it (Spec) can be properly implemented over time. The biggest challenge (and this can be big) are technical changes that cannot be ignored for safety and reliablity reasons. Have even seen environmental issues that have caused modification to spec stuff.

The other significant cost reduction item is the travel. Busch must increase the number of seperation dates from Cup, and regionalize so teams are looking at lower transportation costs.

Do I want it to go away - nope, enjoy the long weekend. Can I understand that eventually it might for good reason/purpose - yeah but --

Anyone notice lately the push to "find your local track" in the NASCAR ads on TV? Kinda - if ya want to see the "up and coming" look elsewhere (i.e. not Busch).

We got bunch of local tracks here that we frequent. One of which is Wall Township. Yup the one of Everham, Truex, and more. Indeed the home(s) of the future "names". For anyone who is not supporting their local tracks and racers --- do it. Ya just might be pleasantly surprised. And it even tends to make the "top" series more entertaining, understandable, and enjoyable.

Enough!! Noone should be allowed to go on this long.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Sounds like the same rationale I hear from Dave Moody on SIRIUS; Cup teams/drivers are good for the Busch Series!

Personally, I think it's the best thing to ever happen to BGN IF you don't care about having a viable farm system where new drivers can have a logical progression to NASCAR's highest level.
It's fantastic IF the only thing you care about is watching a well-known driver race both Saturday and Sunday.
It's kind of a neat deal to see drivers and team owners who have more money than the Vatican use their technology, experience and resources to take prize money from smaller, less-funded teams who really need it.
It's the epitome of fairness to allow teams to have one more test session, under the guise of a Cup Lite race.

Michael, we agree on some things and on others we don't but we're relatively close. But on this subject, however, we are in complete disagreement. But, intelligent people can always agree to disagree, so be it.

My solution is to increase the prize money for BGN and /or utilize a completely different car or tires or both, to make comparison between BGN and Cup impossible.

If NA$CAR is so damn enamored with its Chosen 35 Rule, use it, as 35 and not 20, in BGN. Change it to "The top 35 DRIVERS NOT IN THE TOP 35 IN DRIVER POINTS IN CUP have a guaranteed starting spot. Then let the top 35 Cup drivers who want an extra test session to fight over the remaining eight spots. As NA$CAR loves to have the announcers spout, a veritable "race within a race."

Hmmmmmm, I think you took my post into another world.

I never said Cup drivers were good for Busch, but I did say without cup drivers, Busch would be nothing. I'm all for a system with actual Busch drivers instead of cup drivers, but like I said, without cup drivers, there probably wouldn't be a Busch series because NASCAR dosen't seem to interested in a system to let Busch drivers race Busch, and cup race cup. The main reason cup drivers race in Busch is to get their sponsor out and for owner points, and more money. But I'm not saying that I'm for cup drivers in Busch, I have ranted about that for a long time.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Mike24

Hmmmmmm, I think you took my post into another world.

I never said Cup drivers were good for Busch, but I did say without cup drivers, Busch would be nothing. I'm all for a system with actual Busch drivers instead of cup drivers, but like I said, without cup drivers, there probably wouldn't be a Busch series because NASCAR dosen't seem to interested in a system to let Busch drivers race Busch, and cup race cup. The main reason cup drivers race in Busch is to get their sponsor out and for owner points, and more money. But I'm not saying that I'm for cup drivers in Busch, I have ranted about that for a long time.

I see. Mike, sometimes I decipher the printed word completely wrong and please accept my apology for doing so with you. I believe that while we may not be on the same line of scrimage, we're in the same stadium.
Thanks for setting me straight. I appreciate it.