[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by wingkey1

Re: Bold above

That there's a pretty good capture of what must (forget must make it will) be the case.

No matter what is written as a rule/condition/definition (each may put our own word to it) ultimately there is human(s) making the final judgement.
=================================================

• Ya can't write the perfect definition for do ya / when do ya throw a the caution. The red flag, you can get a bit closer to.
• The rule/definition will be a safety thing
• For so long as it is necessary or desireable to have human involvement in the determination, latitude and descretion will and should exist
• If ya weren't on the judicial team for the event and it's particular incident, ya just may be wrong. Dang, even I don't like to hear that.
• Track size matters

This stuff sure is fun ain't it.

Thanks Wing. You did a Hell of a lot better job of summing up my feelings than I did.

Yeah, I'd have loved to see Mark martin finally get something that he's earned but that's emotion speaking. Rationality tells me that, for once, NASCAR made a correct call, even if, from what I can gather, it was totally by accident.

Hoots, and whomever was in the booth with him had...? maybe five seconds, at the most, to get a grasp of the situation and make the call the to flagman. Even on my best day, with zero adult beverage in me, I'd be hard pressed to react that quickly. How about the rest of us? Honestly?

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Thanks Wing. You did a Hell of a lot better job of summing up my feelings than I did.

Yeah, I'd have loved to see Mark martin finally get something that he's earned but that's emotion speaking. Rationality tells me that, for once, NASCAR made a correct call, even if, from what I can gather, it was totally by accident.

Hoots, and whomevber was in the booth with him had...? maybe five seconds, at the most, to get a grasp of the situation and make the call the to flagman. Even on my best day, with zero adult beverage in me, I'd be hard pressed to react that quickly. How about the rest of us? Honestly?

Honestly ??? Well I guess if I had to give you an honest answer I would have let the race finish just as it did. Reason one would be that the reaction time to actually throw a yellow that would have done any good was ZERO. Reason two is because of a stock answer to all disagreements ... no matter what you do it will be wrong to someone. That is just what the case is here. I can give you reasons that lean towards both sides of the question. Part of that is because I have the time to think about the situation, think about the rules (if we knew them) and also think about what the majority of fans want. Took me longer to type that than it did for the incident to occur.

I may well be that black & white, structured guy but the more I read here and ingest the info I really am beginning to think that the correct call was made. One of the key issues in this decision or any like it is to remove the emotions from the choice. If it had been Derrick Cope instead of Mark Martin we may not have been cheering so emotionally for him. If Mark had the necessary push to stay in front he might have won. If Dale Sr. had not had a flat maybe Cope would have never won.

What if, what if !!!

[trollmc08]

Should they have thrown the yellow or not?

What difference does it make, Bob said in one of his posts that Harvick was ahead of Martin when the wreck happened I didn't think so and sense I record every race on DVD I went back and looked again. I really have to say Bob your absolutely right. So for all the people that think Mark Martin was robed I am sorry if the caution had came out when the wreck started Harvick would still have won. Also in reviewing the end of the race the caution did come out as soon as Harvick crossed the finish line and the rest of the field was frozen. So again I ask what difference does it make other than something for us to talk about.

[BringBackWilkesboro]

Originally Posted by trollmc08

Should they have thrown the yellow or not?

What difference does it make, Bob said in one of his posts that Harvick was ahead of Martin when the wreck happened I didn't think so and sense I record every race on DVD I went back and looked again. I really have to say Bob your absolutely right. So for all the people that think Mark Martin was robed I am sorry if the caution had came out when the wreck started Harvick would still have won. Also in reviewing the end of the race the caution did come out as soon as Harvick crossed the finish line and the rest of the field was frozen. So again I ask what difference does it make other than something for us to talk about.

Which is the biggest of many reasons this controversy shouldn't exist.

[clutch]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Hoots, and whomevber was in the booth with him had...? maybe five seconds, at the most, to get a grasp of the situation and make the call the to flagman. Even on my best day, with zero adult beverage in me, I'd be hard pressed to react that quickly. How about the rest of us? Honestly?

Thats true it all happened very quickly and .....a little hesitation probably decided it

[Nevadastars]

Actual footage. In these photos, the 29 is clearly ahead, but scroll down......

[Nevadastars]

In these last two, the first shot looks like a dead heat, in the second, Martin appears to be ahead. Of course this is all happening very quickly, so who's to say EXACTLY when they would have thrown the caution?




No matter what, I do believe the correct car one the race.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Hoots, and whomever was in the booth with him had...? maybe five seconds, at the most, to get a grasp of the situation and make the call the to flagman. Even on my best day, with zero adult beverage in me, I'd be hard pressed to react that quickly.

OK .... here's what really happened. The person(s) making the decision needed to visit the rest room in a very bad way so instead of delaying that job any longer by throwing a yellow he said enough is enough. Leave it green so I can go !!!!

Here is yet another technical question. If this scenerio does occur at lap 75 exactly when is the field frozen ? Is it at the actual point of the caution or is it at the first scoring loop after the yellow is thrown ? It appears that Martin may have been ahead of Harvick at one point after the accident occured, at least according to the photos shown. Who was in the lead at the time they crossed the scoring loop or is that even how the decision was made ???

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

OK .... here's what really happened. The person(s) making the decision needed to visit the rest room in a very bad way so instead of delaying that job any longer by throwing a yellow he said enough is enough. Leave it green so I can go !!!!

Here is yet another technical question. If this scenerio does occur at lap 75 exactly when is the field frozen ? Is it at the actual point of the caution or is it at the first scoring loop after the yellow is thrown ? It appears that Martin may have been ahead of Harvick at one point after the accident occured, at least according to the photos shown. Who was in the lead at the time they crossed the scoring loop or is that even how the decision was made ???

Is it at the actual point of the caution or is it at the first scoring loop after the yellow is thrown ? Neither. It is the last scoring loop prior to the caution being thrown. This is not unlike the practice/method used at your local short tracks. While they do not have scoring loops, the restart after a caution is the running order at the last completed lap. Want a crazy job at your local track, be a lap scorer. Ya sit there with your scoring pad, eyes focused on nothing but the start finish line, and scribble down the car numbers as they cross the line each lap. Ya gotta be dedicated. Now there is no doubt some dimwit will argue multiple scenarios around how this (last scoring loop / last full lap) could be soooo friggin' unfair. Simply ask the dimwit to describe his PERFECT and UNFALABLE solution.

Who was in the lead at the time they crossed the scoring loop - did not matter since there was no caution till after the race was completed

[lilsexy08]

Here is my opinion, what I saw was right before the caution Martin was ahead! They showed it on the replay. I think Martin should have gotton the win.

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by lilsexy08

Here is my opinion, what I saw was right before the caution Martin was ahead! They showed it on the replay. I think Martin should have gotton the win.

Got to remember though, there was no caution until after the leaders crossed the finish line and took the checkered flag on the final lap.

Wow, that just reminded me of something. Flaggers tend to hold two flags, the "active" flag and the next most likely flag. In a race that is in a green condition with leaders coming to the line for the checker, it is possible the flagger is holding the white and checkered. The white for those running at the back and entering their last lap, and the checker for the leaders who let's say are just coming out of 4 to the finish. Suddenly there's a developing mess just behind the leaders (sound familiar?). Mr. Flagg is now scrambling to "rack" the white, grab the yellow (because the developing mess has potential and indeed could be the next most likely flag needed), and perhaps even with his third hand remove the green from a "display" position out over the track. All the while now hanging on to the checker because who knows, maybe the "mess" won't move to the disaster stage and this friggin race just might complete itself. And oh by the way, Mr. Flaggs spotters are starting to talk to him over the radio about the developing mess, while he does the grab and rack the flag thing AND makes a decision with regards to actually showing the yellow. Somehow while all this was going on, MR. Flagg realizes there is no friggin way he can show anything but the checker because the leaders are pretty much at the finish line by the time all of the required physical and mental responses for the situation have played out.

And oh by the way, I've been a Mr. Flagg, and scenarios similar to the above have been experienced personally. Believe me, the rate at which things occur tax your mental and physical responses.

I still love just thinking about it.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by wingkey1

Is it at the actual point of the caution or is it at the first scoring loop after the yellow is thrown ? Neither. It is the last scoring loop prior to the caution being thrown. This is not unlike the practice/method used at your local short tracks. While they do not have scoring loops, the restart after a caution is the running order at the last completed lap. Want a crazy job at your local track, be a lap scorer. Ya sit there with your scoring pad, eyes focused on nothing but the start finish line, and scribble down the car numbers as they cross the line each lap. Ya gotta be dedicated. Now there is no doubt some dimwit will argue multiple scenarios around how this (last scoring loop / last full lap) could be soooo friggin' unfair. Simply ask the dimwit to describe his PERFECT and UNFALABLE solution.

Who was in the lead at the time they crossed the scoring loop - did not matter since there was no caution till after the race was completed

Very good explaination. Just one of the many reasons I enjoy this forum.

[Phils20]

Pefect explanation. Then man in the flag stand doesn't wave the caution until told to do so. Nor does he control the lghts. He is mostly there to start the race, and for the fans in the stands. All those motions still have the same meaning, but listening in on the scanner, you hear the one to go until green being passed to the driver from the crew cheif prior to having the flagman wave it to the field!

I still like having the flag waved, it is tradition! Anyone take note of the footage from the first 500, when the flagger was tanding at the bottom of the track and all the photographers were in the grass?? No way would that work today!

[americanwit]

What would have been the point other than causing contreversy?

[RUSTYFAN2]

Originally Posted by americanwit

What would have been the point other than causing contreversy?

I agree. At first I thought they should have thrown the yellow. But after they pointed out that the wreck would continue either way...I had to agree. Plus... I know that they piss me off when it ends under caution. It was a no win situation.