[JSAD]

Originally Posted by lilsexy08

No doubt! Thats all I have to say about that! Robbed I'm tellin ya! Robbed!

its the truth and nascar acant hide this one

[EmpireWF]

Originally Posted by JSAD

its the truth and nascar acant hide this one

I disagree. The two guys were about to finish and they let them finish it on the track. It's better than analyzing it on TV or a Camera or Computer and determining the winner.

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by JSAD

quite frankly if they did throw the caution the safety crew could have got to clint bowyer faster and the back of the pack wouldnt have got into the mess

JSAD... how would have the back of the pack not got into the mess? The whole pack was together for the shootout to the end. The safety crews wouldn't have been able to get to anyone any faster because the big one happened on the front stretch coming to the finish line for the checkered flag. The caution would have made no sense cause they were coming to the finish. I would agree with a caution if say it happened with 2 laps to go or on the back stretch maybe... but coming to the checkered flag on the front stretch? Please explain a little more in depth your opinion.

[jks812]

I don't know JSAD's opinion on it, but mine is that Clint Bowyer could have used the safety crew and the safety crew don't go til the caution comes out now. That's why when they threw the checkered flag then they threw a caution flag.

[JSAD]

the reason i said the thing about the safety crews is that they could have got rolling a couple seconds earlier and if bowyer hadnt have come back over that could have made the difference AND in cart they all slow down as soon as they see yellow and pretty much by the time the car is stopeed the safety crew is there

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by jks812

I don't know JSAD's opinion on it, but mine is that Clint Bowyer could have used the safety crew and the safety crew don't go til the caution comes out now. That's why when they threw the checkered flag then they threw a caution flag.

To me throwing after the fact is also pointless. They were all wrecking at the finish line. Bowyer went across the line on his roof. The safety crews couldn't move til the melee was over.

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by JSAD

the reason i sadi the thing about the safety crews is taht they couls have got trolling a couple seconds earlier and if bowyer hadnt have come back over that couls have made the difference AND in cart they all slow down a s ssojn as they see yellow and pretty much by the timew the car is stopeed the safety crew is there

I can see a little where your comin from... in this situation though, the majority of those involved didn't have a chance to slow down, and if they had.. the situation could have been alot worse than it was. JMHO

[titans#1]

im happy they let them race for it.it wouldnt be as entertaining to watch the DAYTONA 500 end under caution.i dont believe there was any safety issues going on that close to the line most of the cars that recked ended up finishing cuz the line was so close that they just spun and fliped by the finish line.

[BringBackWilkesboro]

Originally Posted by JSAD

ill take this one most of you probably watched wind tunnel last night and yes mike joy said it would do nothing,
but guess who's payin his sallary?... NASCAR.
he'll say anything they want him to say and quite frankly if they did throw the caution the safety crew could have got to clint bowyer faster and the back of the pack wouldnt have got into the mess

I disagree. It wouldn't have mattered if they threw the yellow or not. They would still have been wrecking when the yellow came out. Mike Joy said it perfectly last night, a caution wouldn't have stopped everyone from wrecking. I also believe that since the race was only a couple hundred feet from the finish, there's really no point in throwing the yellow. One more interesting point, if you look at the video, Harvick's nose is still ahead of Martin when Busch wrecked. Martin doesn't retake the lead momentarily until the wreck was in full swing, if you will. Anyway, I'm so sick and tired of a great race being overshadowed by controversy that shouldn't even be there in the first place.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by JSAD

ill take this one most of you probably watched wind tunnel last night and yes mike joy said it would do nothing,
but guess who's payin his sallary?... NASCAR.
he'll say anything they want him to say and quite frankly if they did throw the caution the safety crew could have got to clint bowyer faster and the back of the pack wouldnt have got into the mess

Gee. I was under the impression that Mike was on the FOX and Speed Channel payroll.

What he said was backed up by hte video of Harvick and Mark and Schrub wrecking. Until I saw that I was of an oposite mind, but the video, NOT Mike or Dick's take on it, convinced me.

[BringBackWilkesboro]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Gee. I was under the impression that Mike was on the FOX and Speed Channel payroll.

That impression is correct, I do believe. And, something I forgot to add: People have been trying back NASCAR into a corner by asking "Do the rules change just because it's the last lap?" Well, my view may be a little twisted, but I think yes, they should. NASCAR instituted the field freezing rule to make sure that Dale Jarrett's situation didn't happen again. Mainly, it protects the guys who have already wrecked from being hit by somebody racing back to the caution. If it's the last lap, the field will be slowed down anyway by the time the come up on the wreck. It doesn't make a difference for the drivers behind the wreck when it happens, they'd have to dodge it either way. Nobody likes to see a race end under caution right?

[Quality88]

This has been my point... when the wreck is on the last lap a few hundred feet from the start finish line(and the checkered flag) it is pointless to throw the caution as everyone is wreckin at the line... case in point... Clint Bowyer sliding across the finish line ON HIS ROOF! Let's end this discussion. We are already beating a dead horse.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Quality88

Let's end this discussion. We are already beating a dead horse.

Beating a dead horse ... maybe. Just as many of the controversies went on forever last year , so too will this one. If nothing else I do enjoy reading and thinking about other view points. Granted the majority of them are one way or the other but someone always comes up with a different viewpoint of the same situation and for the most part it allows me to, at the least, rethink the way I see it. Many times I have been swayed by reading anothers post. There is no point in arguing over this issue but opinions are always welcomed.

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Beating a dead horse ... maybe. Just as many of the controversies went on forever last year , so too will this one. If nothing else I do enjoy reading and thinking about other view points. Granted the majority of them are one way or the other but someone always comes up with a different viewpoint of the same situation and for the most part it allows me to, at the least, rethink the way I see it. Many times I have been swayed by reading anothers post. There is no point in arguing over this issue but opinions are always welcomed.

I bow to one of the masters of posting, and await more knowledge from thee.

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

You hit the nail on the head with the word "Consistency," JSAD.

My heart wants to agree with you, JSAD, about the need of a black & white rule. It would make it easier, no doubt.

However, my head tells me that there are so many varying situations on a race track, at any given time that a governing body needs the latitude to make decisions dependent on the situation.

Take last night's race for example. A B&W rule about throwing the yellow would have been nice, BUT... How about on the front stretch of the last lap, when dropping the flag would have done nothing to ensure safety, but would only have possibly changed the outcome of the race?

I, personally, don't want to see any governing body go to absolute, etched-in-stone "No Tolerance" rules. They take the personal, individual judgement calls out of the game and give the fans nothing to debate the next day.

Re: Bold above

That there's a pretty good capture of what must (forget must make it will) be the case.

No matter what is written as a rule/condition/definition (each may put our own word to it) ultimately there is human(s) making the final judgement.

In nearly all (likely is all) position(s) (referee, umpire, judge, etc.) of rule application and determination there are words to the effect - "if in the opinion of the referee, judge, flagman, etc.". And it must be that way in the interest of allowing the contest to be played out without jeopardizing the integrity of the "game" or the safety of the players and other participants. Now it DOES become incumbent upon those who elect, chose, assign, etc. said judiciarys to be sure the appropriate level of knowledge, experience, common sense, etc. exists in those in position of judgement.

I have had the priviledge of "flagging" motorsports competition on ovals. Very small ovals where the flagger has a physical position that allows full and near immediate perspective on all segments/area of the track. Why the emphasis on track size? Because as soon as the track size grows just a wee bit, the flagman is given and needs top be given spotters with whom he/she has constant radio contact and communications. What looks from the flagstand as a blocked track may be nowhere near so. The flagman and spotters (like referee and umpire teams) confer pre-contest on just how the available "eyesets" will be applied.

I've also a close acquaintance who is a flagman (person?) that has done CTS and what was called the Featherlite modified tour. He flagged at our club/oval and provided much help and guidance to all of us.

Wow. I'm too long in breath here. Slow it down Wing and stick with KISS (Keep it simple stupid). Summarize boy, summarize --

• Ya can't write the perfect definition for do ya / when do ya throw a the caution. The red flag, you can get a bit closer to.
• The rule/definition will be a safety thing
• For so long as it is necessary or desireable to have human involvement in the determination, latitude and descretion will and should exist
• If ya weren't on the judicial team for the event and it's particular incident, ya just may be wrong. Dang, even I don't like to hear that.
• Track size matters

This stuff sure is fun ain't it.