[Bob Tanner]

The last twenty laps of today's race is why NA$CAR will do away with the plates only at the point of a gun. An extremely close finish and multiple multi-car wrecks puts a lot of butts in the seats.

The week started in controversy and will end in the same. I predict a huge cry that NASCAR "should have" thrown the flag at the first sign of a crash so Mark could get the win. I'd sure have rather seen him get the win as Harvick, but I agree with NASCAR. All the cars were going for the line and I doubt that anyone, including the spotters would have seen the yellow being thrown. Rotten ending but, IMNSVHO, a correct one.

The first 180 laps were pretty unremarkable, as far as I was concerned. To me, the most notable things were the number of favourites put out before the end was in sight, and the number of virtual unknowns who looked a lot better today than they have in the past, i.e.; David Gilliland, David Ragan, Johnny Sauter, Jamie McMurray and Sr. Montoya.

All in all, the majority of the race was typical Daytona. The last twenty were action-packed and the last two were nail biters. I'm sure, overall, that the post race discussion will be much more enthralling that discussion of Britney Spears' tattoos or Anna Nichole Smith's burial site.

OKAY first the rules are clear that that should have been a yellow second where did harvick get the extra 100 horse power to get that run ( NO CAR DOES THAT)

[BringBackWilkesboro]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

The last twenty laps of today's race is why NA$CAR will do away with the plates only at the point of a gun. An extremely close finish and multiple multi-car wrecks puts a lot of butts in the seats.

The week started in controversy and will end in the same. I predict a huge cry that NASCAR "should have" thrown the flag at the first sign of a crash so Mark could get the win. I'd sure have rather seen him get the win as Harvick, but I agree with NASCAR. All the cars were going for the line and I doubt that anyone, including the spotters would have seen the yellow being thrown. Rotten ending but, IMNSVHO, a correct one.

The first 180 laps were pretty unremarkable, as far as I was concerned. To me, the most notable things were the number of favourites put out before the end was in sight, and the number of virtual unknowns who looked a lot better today than they have in the past, i.e.; David Gilliland, David Ragan, Johnny Sauter, Jamie McMurray and Sr. Montoya.

All in all, the majority of the race was typical Daytona. The last twenty were action-packed and the last two were nail biters. I'm sure, overall, that the post race discussion will be much more enthralling that discussion of Britney Spears' tattoos or Anna Nichole Smith's burial site.

Well Bob, I thought it was, all in all, a pretty good race. Reminded me of old Daytona during the middle portions. We saw some good battling up front all day, and we had a dramtic twist (everybody loves those, dont they?) when Busch and Stewart went out. Thats about when things picked up. I was really pulling for Martin at the end, but you gotta give it to Harvick for beating him clean when he easily could have wrecked him.

I was suprised and happy that we didn't see the un-necessary cautions that we normally see nowadays. We even saw green flag pitstops kids!

About the end, I dont believe NASCAR should have thrown the yellow, as much as I wanted Martin to win it. As Larry Mac said, they were wrecking behind them, not in front of them, and they were only feet from the finish line anyway. Again, I tip my hat to both Harvick and Martin for not taking each other out.

One final note, it's a good thing Bowyer's car tipped back to it's wheels because, lord help him if it doesn't.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by BringBackWilkesboro

Well Bob, I thought it was, all in all, a pretty good race. Reminded me of old Daytona during the middle portions. We saw some good battling up front all day, and we had a dramtic twist (everybody loves those, dont they?) when Busch and Stewart went out. Thats about when things picked up. I was really pulling for Martin at the end, but you gotta give it to Harvick for beating him clean when he easily could have wrecked him.

I was suprised and happy that we didn't see the un-necessary cautions that we normally see nowadays. We even saw green flag pitstops kids!

About the end, I dont believe NASCAR should have thrown the yellow, as much as I wanted Martin to win it. As Larry Mac said, they were wrecking behind them, not in front of them, and they were only feet from the finish line anyway. Again, I tip my hat to both Harvick and Martin for not taking each other out.

One final note, it's a good thing Bowyer's car tipped back to it's wheels because, lord help him if it doesn't.

Aagin it appears we see things about the same, Wilks. Thanks for reminding me of the lack of debris cautions. That, in itself made the race remarkable. But then, I don't remember Junior ever being in danger of going a lap down. (Said, tongue in cheek)

I'm just glad Bowyer didn't get harder than he did, as he was sliding toward the finish line on his roof. I don't get too worried when they roll or when they begin to flip. But when they get drilled when they're upside down. That's another story. I ***** about NASCAR in many ways, but generally speaking they do a GREAT job in protecting the drivers.

[BringBackWilkesboro]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

But when they get drilled when they're upside down. That's another story. I ***** about NASCAR in many ways, but generally speaking they do a GREAT job in protecting the drivers.

That they do Bob. When you add fire to the mix, you better be counting your luck stars that you got out of there.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Rotten ending but, IMNSVHO, a correct one.

Since you are our senior historian I'm curious to know why you believe it was the correct call. Along with that just what does the rule book call for? You know I have little to no faith in NASCAR justice so I would be very interested in knowing the proper way to handle that situation. This is going to bring on some good discussions. Some heated I'm sure.

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Since you are our senior historian I'm curious to know why you believe it was the correct call.

i believe Bob is saying it was the correct call to let them race for the win......because thats what everyone wants to see

it seems for NASCAR it was a lose lose situation.......dont throw the flag and people are mad......throw the flag and people are mad

i agree i think they did the right thing

its like in many sports......they say let them decide it on the field, or in this case on the track.......dont let the refs, or in this case the flag decide it

the wreck had no effect on the outcome of the win.....let Martin and Harvick duel for it

Martins problem was evident when he got interviewed, he said he thought the caution was going to come out.......in my mind that means he gave up....if you dont see the yellow or your spotter doesnt alert you to it you keep the pedal to the metal period........Martin let up and he lost.....its that simple

as for the race.......im happiest of the performance of Montoya.....i think he did outstanding........a top 20 finish, cant ask for more in your 1st race

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by simple simon

i believe Bob is saying it was the correct call to let them race for the win......because thats what everyone wants to see

it seems for NASCAR it was a lose lose situation.......dont throw the flag and people are mad......throw the flag and people are mad

i agree i think they did the right thing

its like in many sports......they say let them decide it on the field, or in this case on the track.......dont let the refs, or in this case the flag decide it

the wreck had no effect on the outcome of the win.....let Martin and Harvick duel for it

Martins problem was evident when he got interviewed, he said he thought the caution was going to come out.......in my mind that means he gave up....if you dont see the yellow or your spotter doesnt alert you to it you keep the pedal to the metal period........Martin let up and he lost.....its that simple

as for the race.......im happiest of the performance of Montoya.....i think he did outstanding........a top 20 finish, cant ask for more in your 1st race

ONLY for the sake of discussion I will once again ask what are the rules that would govern this situation ? I do not know what the actual rules are but as I noted before, if this had happened on lap 75 the field would have been frozen. This situation is what brought about the "lucky dog" plan ..... like it or not. One person I spoke with in person today suggested that there is a slight possibility that the extent of the wrecks may have been less severe had the yellow been thrown. Hard to really determine that since they were in turn 4 when all this happened. I do understand the concept that there was no accident in front of those two so safety wasn't an issue for them. The point I keep hearing is "what do the rules say???"

The running order at the end MAY have been slightly different had the yellow been thrown. There is that very slight possibilty that some of the cars that wrecked may not have wrecked had the yellow come out ??? Who really knows. It is just going to make for a lot of discussions.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

ONLY for the sake of discussion I will once again ask what are the rules that would govern this situation ? I do not know what the actual rules are but as I noted before, if this had happened on lap 75 the field would have been frozen. This situation is what brought about the "lucky dog" plan ..... like it or not. One person I spoke with in person today suggested that there is a slight possibility that the extent of the wrecks may have been less severe had the yellow been thrown. Hard to really determine that since they were in turn 4 when all this happened. I do understand the concept that there was no accident in front of those two so safety wasn't an issue for them. The point I keep hearing is "what do the rules say???"

The running order at the end MAY have been slightly different had the yellow been thrown. There is that very slight possibility that some of the cars that wrecked may not have wrecked had the yellow come out ??? Who really knows. It is just going to make for a lot of discussions.

Steve, I'll answer your previous question and throw in a thought about the rules on the above.

First, I believe the call was the correct one, even though it allowed Kevie the win. As I previously said, they were all going for the flag. IF they'd thrown a yellow most wouldn't have seen it, or paid it any attention. If any did lift, they would have caused a wreck much bigger than the one they had, in all probability.

Just consider a couple things. First, it was the last lap. They weren't going to continue around the track but lift after going through the tri-oval. Throwing the flag would have had virtually no affect on the ensuing wreck.

Second, I don't believe throwing the yellow would have spared a single car involved in the wreck. They were coming to the tri-oval under full power, scrambling for every space they could get and after Schrub started the whole thing, the other drivers fate was sealed. The yellow would have done nothing.

In fact, the yellow wouldn't have given Mark the win. I've seen the wreck replayed multiple times and it is plain that when Schrub spun to the right and hit Kenseth,(when most believe the yellow button should have frozen the field), Harvick was a wheel ahead of Martin. Martin then went past him but Harvick clipped him in the last 100 feet. When the flag would have normally been thrown, Harvick had the lead.

Besides, a yellow would have meant a finish under the yellow, and how many times have we seen fans cry about the wrongs such a finish involve?

As to what exactly is the rule? Who knows? Unlike other major sports, this forum, and most other legitimate activities, NA$CAR chooses to keep its rules secret and not make them available to the public. I think they do this just so, in incidences like tonight, they can enforce any rule in any way they want.

Yeah, I can think of about 38 other drivers I'd have liked to see win it besides Kevie-Baby. And, I can think of only a couple whom I would have rather seen win it than Mark. But, winning aside, I would prefer to see a race end honestly. In my heart of hearts, I think that's what we saw this afternoon.

[oncea3fan]

I must say the first 2/3 of the race was a real snozzer.
the last third really picked up, not because of the wrecks but for me was the side by side and jockeying for position.

the last lapp I was rooting for matin then I yelleed were the heck did harvick come from oh crap go martin I hope harvick wins no I want harvick to win.
my wife was like what the heck is going on in there ???


my one complaint is dave blaney he is an idoit, I know he had a flat, but he should have know that, were was his spotter. and either way did he think he was going to flat track it in to traffic at 160mph.
shrader should have beat his ass.

[wardfan]

poor ol' Schrader always seems to get the short end of the stick. One of his decals must say "hit me". As to the yellow coming out, its still someone having to make that decision. I've seen it where at the first puff of smoke they throw the flag in an instant and other times where it seems cars are starting to wreck and it seems to take awhile for someone to make that decision to throw the flag. I agree with the others in that throwing the yellow yesterday would have not changed the outcome of additional cars wrecking or Martin winning because in that last few seconds everyone was going to do nothing but go for broke.

[KENVOL]

Man what a GREAT FINISH. I was really pulling for Mark. He is such a class act. We need more like him in the sport. Did anyone else notice the civility of the drivers yesterday. No one was blaming and everyone took responsibility for there wrecks. How long will this last? The only thing about the finish I didn't understand was where did Kevin Harvick come from. Man he came on like he was racing against kids. Man did he come on fast. But the best thing was the CHEVY sweep.

[LSC9901]

Bob your explainations are done with such eloquence that it is virtually impossible to argue. I had the same thoughts about how a yellow would have affected how the accident might have changed the end. Obviously when the yellow comes out they don't all automatically slow down to whatever the prescribed speed it. It takes a few feet to accomplish that goal.

It is a bit sad that the public doesn't have more access to the rules but since on many occassions rules are enforced as needed I suspect there is nothing written in stone. That allows for determinations to be made on an individual case by case basis.

As KENVOL noted there didn't seem to be that normal name calling and blaming of the other driver. One must wonder just what phase the moon was in to make that happen and when will it end.

As usual for me, I did enjoy the race. The end is the way they all should be ... not the accident but the fender to fender running to the flag. It's all about the racin'.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

It is a bit sad that the public doesn't have more access to the rules but since on many occassions rules are enforced as needed I suspect there is nothing written in stone. That allows for determinations to be made on an individual case by case basis..

I believe that it's pretty obvious that NASCAR's "rules" are written in pencil. As long as it selectively enforces it's rules, NASCAR can never claim to be a major professional sport.

I heard a theory last week that NASCAR needs to hire an independent entity to make the calls and enforce the rules, much as the NFL and MLB does. (I believe the Umps and the Ref's don't have a direct connection to their respective Leagues, do they? Someone set me straight if I'm wrong on this; I no longer profess to know much of anything about stick&ball) Take the "foul calling" completely out of NASCAR's hands so that there will be no question of conflict of interest and favouritism.

I can't honestly argue against that theory.

I also heard a respected reporter state that David Hoots (the "guy in the booth" who makes the calls for the yellow flag, debris cautions, etc., etc) has representatives from various teams up in the booth with him to "assist" in making the calls! IF (BIG I-F there!) that is true... Talk about a conflict of interest!!!

Originally Posted by LSC9901

As KENVOL noted there didn't seem to be that normal name calling and blaming of the other driver. One must wonder just what phase the moon was in to make that happen and when will it end.
.

Possibly everyone is just plain sickened by the cheating controversy of this past week and just don't have that much venom left to spew? Personally, I just am glad the week is over. What started last November as an anticipated event turned into something out of an Hieronymus Bosch painting. Too bad they go from Daytona to California. Nothing to look forward to this week, either.

[Mike24]

Why throw the caution flag? Let them RACE BACK TO THE LINE. If that was Jeff Gordon and Kevin Harvick racing back to the line, everyone would be like GOOD JOB NASCAR FOR KEEPING THE GREEN OUT. But since this was Mark Martin, we have a major controversy. NASCAR made the right decision by keeping the green out and letting them race back to the line, giving us a race. Most of the fans that are upset with this are Mark Martin fans though, which I can't blame ya, but still. What confuses me is fans complain on how NASCAR has a rule where you can't race back to the line, and when NASCAR let them race back to the line last night, everyone starts complaining about it. And I think the only reason is because that was Mark Martin racing Kevin Harvick. But a good move by NASCAR for giving us a race, instead of deciding it with a caution flag.

Complain about no racing, and when NASCAR gives you racing, some people still complain about it. lol! This is why I hate NASCAR for getting rid of racing back to the line. But they gave us a race back to the line tonight, and it was awesome.