[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

As usual after reading both of your posts I again feel enlightened. When you are not a fan of one of the drivers who get penalized under these situations, it is easier to just say "Tough stuff for him". The reality is as you explained it, the driver suffers for someone else's indiscretion. The owner points are a very important factor in the top 35 battle so I agree that when the violation cannot absolutely be attributed to the driver then the driver shouldn't receive any demerits.

I agree that since we aren't directly involved, but rather are strictly spectators, it is quite easy to make radical decisions when it comes to NA$CAR and its rules. However, if we all just sat back, agreed with everything NASCAR does, and thought about everything we see subjectively and not objectively, we'd be reduced to being just a collection of people who see nothing but the superficial. We'd spend our time in this forum slapping each other on the back and congratulating each other on our intelligence and perception by choosing NASCAR as the sport to follow.

I "bolded" the above because I believe, to the bottom of my dark little heart, that it identifies one of NA$CAR's most glaring inequities; the "Favored 35 Rule." This year has shown that it is unfair, and actually not very popular when it comes to satisfying high-dollar sponsors (read: Team Red Bull).

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Now the owner is most certainly a different situation. If MWR cannot keep its cars in that magic top 35 I would guess that the $$$ from Toyota may begin to dry up. Whether Toyota knew of the violation or not someone needs to be responsible. Since trying to fine or penalize the Toyota CEO in Japan somewhere is fruitless then it must fall back on the owner. Taking manufacturers points is a fair avenue to follow.

I believe that here we have a good example of my previously-mentioned "Plausible Deniability" concept. I would suggest that it is the responsibility of the driver to KNOW his car is as legal as it can be within the bounds of the existing rules. I'll give you that there is room for argument on a minor infraction. However, speaking only theoretically, IF I were a driver, I'd like to see a morals clause in my contract where, if my car were presented with a major infraction resulting in driver point deduction, I, as a driver, would be monetarily compensated by the car owner.

In hindsight I agree that being banned from a race is a bit harsh, except in rules of safety and illegal mods on NASCAR supplied items. That is no grey area there.

Banning a driver penalizes not only the driver and his team but his fans (Gotta love those Driver fans). Instead of an outright ban how about going along the lines of what NASCAR has done to Everham? A relatively stiff fine and 50 driver points for the first infraction, 100 points for the second infraction that season and 200 points for the third infraction. Forget sending the crew chiefs home. That can be argued that it is counter productive. The CC can sit CC the race by way of computer, blackberry and cell phone. Plus, he can be back in the shop during the non-race hours getting the cars ready for the next race. We all saw how effective it was for them to exile Knause from the first four races last year, right?

The bottom line, as I see it, with this episode of cheating, is what it's done to NASCAR's image. This is NASCAR's biggest week, with featured races in CTS, Cup Lite and Cup. There is a new manufacturer (Toyota), a new, world-class driver (John Paul Montoya) a new NA$CARmobile on the near horizon, plus a change in the point structure, minor though it may be. But what is spotlighted on all the network sports news shows, not to mention Larry King? Mikey and his miraculous fuel additive.

Once NASCAR fans could proudly point out that we are "above" the steroid- enhanced records, the cork-filled bats, etc., etc, of stick&ball. Thanks to this past week, those days are now a page in history. We have now dropped down to the level of stick& ball sports.

To the folks to talk about the virtues of those cleaver mechanics, Smokey Yunick, Junior Johnson, Harry Hyde, and the like: THEY WERE STILL CHEATERS! That might have been passable in the days when NASCAR racing was a regional sport, and didn't have major, nationwide coverage in the media. But, like our innocence, those days are gone forever. Now, kids all over the country look up to these people in NASCAR as role models. I don't know about you but I would want my kids to idolize people who play the game fairly and do not think ethics are situational.

Robin Hood may have been a romantic character and loved by all. However, the bottom line is that he was still a common thief.

Originally Posted by LSC9901

For anyone who has worked in a large company you know that this rule is in every contract. It is just one of those rules that management uses when they cannot find any other reason to go after you. It is a pretty liberally written rule, but used by many, many organizations. I know the outfit I used to work for used it to their advantage.

Keep up the great posts guys !!!

...and NA$CAR is nothing if not a large company, is it?

[Tuck4Bama]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

I agree that since we aren't directly involved, but rather are strictly spectators, it is quite easy to make radical decisions when it comes to NA$CAR and its rules. However, if we all just sat back, agreed with everything NASCAR does, and thought about everything we see subjectively and not objectively, we'd be reduced to being just a collection of people who see nothing but the superficial. We'd spend our time in this forum slapping each other on the back and congratulating each other on our intelligence and perception by choosing NASCAR as the sport to follow.

I "bolded" the above because I believe, to the bottom of my dark little heart, that it identifies one of NA$CAR's most glaring inequities; the "Favored 35 Rule." This year has shown that it is unfair, and actually not very popular when it comes to satisfying high-dollar sponsors (read: Team Red Bull).

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Now the owner is most certainly a different situation. If MWR cannot keep its cars in that magic top 35 I would guess that the $$$ from Toyota may begin to dry up. Whether Toyota knew of the violation or not someone needs to be responsible. Since trying to fine or penalize the Toyota CEO in Japan somewhere is fruitless then it must fall back on the owner. Taking manufacturers points is a fair avenue to follow./QUOTE]

I believe that here we have a good example of my previously-mentioned "Plausible Deniability" concept. I would suggest that it is the responsibility of the driver to KNOW his car is as legal as it can be within the bounds of the existing rules. I'll give you that there is room for argument on a minor infraction. However, speaking only theoretically, IF I were a driver, I'd like to see a morals clause in my contract where, if my car were presented with a major infraction resulting in driver point deduction, I, as a driver, would be monetarily compensated by the car owner.

In hindsight I agree that being banned from a race is a bit harsh, except in rules of safety and illegal mods on NASCAR supplied items. That is no grey area there.

Banning a driver penalizes not only the driver and his team but his fans (Gotta love those Driver fans). Instead of an outright ban how about going along the lines of what NASCAR has done to Everham? A relatively stiff fine and 50 driver points for the first infraction, 100 points for the second infraction that season and 200 points for the third infraction. Forget sending the crew chiefs home. That can be argued that it is counter productive. The CC can sit CC the race by way of computer, blackberry and cell phone. Plus, he can be back in the shop during the non-race hours getting the cars ready for the next race. We all saw how effective it was for them to exile Knause from the first four races last year, right?

The bottom line, as I see it, with this episode of cheating, is what it's done to NASCAR's image. This is NASCAR's biggest week, with featured races in CTS, Cup Lite and Cup. There is a new manufacturer (Toyota), a new, world-class driver (John Paul Montoya) a new NA$CARmobile on the near horizon, plus a change in the point structure, minor though it may be. But what is spotlighted on all the network sports news shows, not to mention Larry King? Mikey and his miraculous fuel additive.

Once NASCAR fans could proudly point out that we are "above" the steroid- enhanced records, the cork-filled bats, etc., etc, of stick&ball. Thanks to this past week, those days are now a page in history. We have now dropped down to the level of stick& ball sports.

To the folks to talk about the virtues of those cleaver mechanics, Smokey Yunick, Junior Johnson, Harry Hyde, and the like: THEY WERE STILL CHEATERS! That might have been passable in the days when NASCAR racing was a regional sport, and didn't have major, nationwide coverage in the media. But, like our innocence, those days are gone forever. Now, kids all over the country look up to these people in NASCAR as role models. I don't know about you but I would want my kids to idolize people who play the game fairly and do not think ethics are situational.

Robin Hood may have been a romantic character and loved by all. However, the bottom line is that he was still a common thief.



...and NA$CAR is nothing if not a large company, is it?

NASCAR had better be very careful. The fans made this the most money making sport / business. right now some are excited with all of the cheating because it gives something to talk about, this thread is proof of that, but some of us that have been aroung racing all of our lives me for sure are getting tired of breaking the rules. When I say I have been around racing all my life I mean that literally. I grew up and went to school with Davey Allison in Hueytown, AL. Every Friday night was spent in the pit area at the track at the Alabama State Fairgrounds where I got to know Red Farmer, Donnie And Bobby Allison, Neil Bonnett, Richard Petty, Benny parsons Cale Yarbouough to name a few, and I have been to every Talladega race since 1969. Now I live 23 miles from Tallagega Superspeedway and see how much the two races each year brings into the local economy. They cannot afford to have large numbers of fans jump ship.

NASCAR could be and is it's own worst enemy

Roll Tide Roll

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by Tuck4Bama

They cannot afford to have large numbers of fans jump ship.

Well they have already alienated the majority of the older crowd.... and if the numbers mean anything from last year thier ratings have dropped(not surprising since they have been catering to the "FAD" fans who have gotten bored with Na$car.

Originally Posted by Tuck4Bama

NASCAR could be and is it's own worst enemy

Very true.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Tuck4Bama

NASCAR had better be very careful. The fans made this the most money making sport / business.

NASCAR could be and is it's own worst enemy

I feel that, ironically, the thing that may kill NASCAR is NA$CAR's success.

By in large, they have thrown the fans who got NASCAR to the level it attained at the turn of this Century under the train. NASCAR has targeted a new demographic and are involved in training this new fan into believing that what they see on TV (both the racing and the drivers), and what they read in the paper, is what NASCAR and stock car racing is all about.

here's a challenge for you Tuck, and for any other who may wish to try: Look at the by-line of any NASCAR race story picked up in any paper from one of the news services. (NOT a story written by a writer from the Birmingham paper, but rather a press release put out on the news wire) Now Google that writer's name and look at his other stories. In almost every case you'll find that he/she's a stick& ball writer who knows nothing about NASCAR, other than what NASCAR releases to them. Generally what they're writing is coming from a perspective of someone who knows little or nothing about stock car racing. Their offerings are, in turn, read by the masses and people who aren't familiar with our sport believe what they're reading is what it's all about.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

I feel that, ironically, the thing that may kill NASCAR is NA$CAR's success.

That is pretty much what kills any successful business. They try to grow to projected growths that never materialize. With the difference in the fan base today it'll just be a matter of time before it turns itself into another reality TV series.

[Mike24]

NASCAR will never get killed. I don't think it will even come to that point.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Mike24

NASCAR will never get killed. I don't think it will even come to that point.

That's basically what carriage makers said when the automobile first appeared.

It might not get killed, Mike. However, self destruction isn't out of the question, IMNSVHO.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Mike24

NASCAR will never get killed. I don't think it will even come to that point.

Mike I don't mean killed as in no longer around. My belief is that at some point in time, and it may well be a long time, it'll be a far cry from what it is today and nothing like it was in 1949. It'll be one of those shows carried on ESPN 12 at 11 PM on Saturday night and there'll be some gal walking in front of the camera, half naked, holding a card telling you what lap Mr. "Hot-time Spitfire" is on and then they'll show his pink haired 350LB crew chief eating Lil Debbies !!!

A little dramatic ??? Maybe but my point is it's gonna change to the point that it is no longer real competition, it'll be made for TV competition. Only then it'll be in Super High HD