[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by wardfan

I think the Waltrip Car should have been disqualified & him not allowed to race the Daytona. I just wonder though, does the driver always know exactly what is being done to his car? I don't think alot of them really know. I bet alot of the new drivers really know little of the true mechanics of what exactly goes on.

Absolutely not. We'd ("I" would be correct - just trying to deflect some driver wrath) make changes just (at times) to see if the driver was paying attention. This would be more likely during practice rather than a race.

There are times during the race when you jam in a change without the driver initially being aware. This just a heat of the moment thing that you want to get communicated ASAP. Real important driver knows before he/she gets themselves in too deep.

Funny it was to see/hear the octave change in the drivers voice at times.

[wardfan]

I realize changes are going on during the race. What I mean is what it going on before the car even gets on the track.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by wardfan

I think the Waltrip Car should have been disqualified & him not allowed to race the Daytona. I just wonder though, does the driver always know exactly what is being done to his car? I don't think alot of them really know. I bet alot of the new drivers really know little of the true mechanics of what exactly goes on.

Keep in mind he is not only the driver but the team owner.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by wardfan

I think the Waltrip Car should have been disqualified & him not allowed to race the Daytona. I just wonder though, does the driver always know exactly what is being done to his car? I don't think alot of them really know. I bet alot of the new drivers really know little of the true mechanics of what exactly goes on.

There's a term in politics (politics...a great metaphor for NA$CAR); Plausible deniability. The underlings and the most visible person in the group have an agreement to NOT allow the most visible person to know exactly what's going on in order that they can "honestly" deny any knowledge of wrong-doing.

In The Tall One's case this is a moot point because he is not only the driver ("most visible") but the owner of the team. Therefore he is culpable for everything done by his teams. Exactly like the captain of a Navy ship is held responsible for any damages his ship causes, even though he might not be at the helm at the time of the accident.

Just my personal opinion but I believe strongly that NASCAR could give immediate expulsion (1st offense;sitting out the next race, heavy fine and lost of owner/driver points... then increase the numbers for each subsequent offense) for tampering with items NASCAR furnishes, plus modifications done to safety equipment to increase speed. Those furnished items are tires, fuel, shocks and at plate tracks, restrictor plates. No grey areas with these items. ANY modifications done to these things, NOT in strict accordance with NASCAR guidelines is automatic and final.

As for the rest of their rules: NA$CAR will continue to pick and chose whom they punish and the extent of that punishment . They can easily do this because they make they rule book virtually unavailable to the general public, and they intentionally make their rules vague and open to interpretation in order to selectively enforce them.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

There's a term in politics (politics...a great metaphor for NA$CAR); Plausible deniability. The underlings and the most visible person in the group have an agreement to NOT allow the most visible person to know exactly what's going on in order that they can "honestly" deny any knowledge of wrong-doing.

In The Tall One's case this is a moot point because he is not only the driver ("most visable") but the owner of the team. Therefore he is culpable for everything done by his teams. Exactly like the captain of a Navy ship is held responsible for any damages his ship causes, even though he might not be at the helm at the time of the accident.

Just my personal opinion but I believe strongly that NASCAR could give immediate expulsion (1st offense;sitting out the next race, heavy fine and lost of owner/driver points... then increase the numbers for each subsequent offense) for tampering with items NASCAR furnishes, plus modifications done to safety equipment to increase speed. Those furnished items are tires, fuel, shocks and at plate tracks, restrictor plates. No grey areas with these items. ANY modifications done to these things, NOT in strict accordance with NASCAR guidelines is automatic and final.

Welcome back Bob. Good post as always ... you seem a bit mean this morning ... but I love it.

[wardfan]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

In The Tall One's case this is a moot point because he is not only the driver ("most visible") but the owner of the team. Therefore he is culpable for everything done by his teams. Exactly like the captain of a Navy ship is held responsible for any damages his ship causes, even though he might not be at the helm at the time of the accident.

Well that explains why he always has that stupid, lost, I don't have a clue, look on his face

[jks812]

I remember when they sat Kevin Harvick out of a cup race for jumping on Greg Biffle after a truck race. So why they can't they sat out a cup team that gets caught cheating in a cup race? Of course that would mean that Micheal Waltrip, Kasey Kahne, Elliot Sadler, Scott Riggs and Matt Kenseth would be out of the next race. But that might get their attention more than fines and points being taken away. I say regardless of who cheated or the amount of cheating, it should automatically be at least 1 week sit out for the team.

Originally Posted by wardfan

I realize changes are going on during the race. What I mean is what it going on before the car even gets on the track.

And the answer remains the same. Absolutely not.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by jks812

I remember when they sat Kevin Harvick out of a cup race for jumping on Greg Biffle after a truck race. So why they can't they sat out a cup team that gets caught cheating in a cup race? Of course that would mean that Micheal Waltrip, Kasey Kahne, Elliot Sadler, Scott Riggs and Matt Kenseth would be out of the next race. But that might get their attention more than fines and points being taken away. I say regardless of who cheated or the amount of cheating, it should automatically be at least 1 week sit out for the team.

You forgot Jeffy-Pooh's "The Case of the Misthreaded Bolt Caper." <SLAP!!!> Ooops. I'm sorry. His team said they "didn't mean for that to happen," so they got a free pass. (I believe the other four-mentioned teams said basically the same thing but apparently their apologies weren't contrite enough and they actually got punished). Must be something about the degree of "intent?"

I'd be willing to bet a sizable chunk of dough that if Robby Gordon, or the cars Derrick Cope, Mike Bliss or any other non-popular, relatively unknown driver had been caught with tampered fuel they'd not been shown the grace that Mikey was shown.

I reference the expulsion of Chad Chaffin's car last year (I forget which race) but it's infraction was less than that of Mikey's and he was shown the door IMMEDIATELY).

[Yelk]

Smokey Yunick was one of the biggest cheater of them all and people thought he was great. How can this be?

[BringBackWilkesboro]

I'm gonna break this post down by paragraph and add my feelings if you don't mind Bob.

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

There's a term in politics (politics...a great metaphor for NA$CAR); Plausible deniability. The underlings and the most visible person in the group have an agreement to NOT allow the most visible person to know exactly what's going on in order that they can "honestly" deny any knowledge of wrong-doing.

First, I see Everham's situation as a perfect example. All three of his cars were penalized for some reason or another, but the drivers may or may not have known anything about it (and probably not, in this case). This is where problems occur. Whether the driver knew of anything or not, he is still being penalized. Riggs and Sadler were penalized 25 driver championship points, and Kahne 50, before the season even started. Immediatley, they are in a hole and they haven't even done anything. What baffles me is why, if NASCAR has said they hope to create a deterent from cheating (I use that word lightly), do teams still put the reputation, confidence and even his season on the line to win a race. I would think the risk of putting your driver's season in jepardy before it begins is enough of a deterent. I under stand the determination to win, but is it worth it if you get caught? I say no because even if an Evernham car wins the 500 today, he would still not be the points leader. If that happens, whoever that driver may be has his team to thank for that.

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

In The Tall One's case this is a moot point because he is not only the driver ("most visible") but the owner of the team. Therefore he is culpable for everything done by his teams. Exactly like the captain of a Navy ship is held responsible for any damages his ship causes, even though he might not be at the helm at the time of the accident.

In Mikey's case though, I think it's obvious that he was at the helm so to speak. And I am okay with the penalties handed down to him and his team, by I certainly don't think banning him will be called for. Mike messed with a part of the rule book NASCAR tells you not to mess with. I think the 100 points. I have no problem with NASCAR still letting him race. Even if he wins, again, he will be far from the point lead.

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

Just my personal opinion but I believe strongly that NASCAR could give immediate expulsion (1st offense;sitting out the next race, heavy fine and lost of owner/driver points... then increase the numbers for each subsequent offense) for tampering with items NASCAR furnishes, plus modifications done to safety equipment to increase speed. Those furnished items are tires, fuel, shocks and at plate tracks, restrictor plates. No grey areas with these items. ANY modifications done to these things, NOT in strict accordance with NASCAR guidelines is automatic and final.

Not to contradict what I just said, but I believe so too, But thats if the previous penalties were not so steep. If NASCAR forces him to sit out a race after having docked him 100 points, his season would be over before it begins in this day of NASCAR. I think 100 owner points alone and a 1 race suspension would be fair for this type of situation, but dont fine him driver points as he is not going to get any anyway.

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

As for the rest of their rules: NA$CAR will continue to pick and chose whom they punish and the extent of that punishment . They can easily do this because they make they rule book virtually unavailable to the general public, and they intentionally make their rules vague and open to interpretation in order to selectively enforce them.

Such as section 12-4-A, Actions Detrimental to Stock Car Racing. Actions detrimental to stock car racing can pretty much be anything NASCAR doesn't think is right, and a violation of that section is what usually warrants the steepest penalty. But since it covers such a wide area, NASCAR can basically choose when a team has done something "detrimental to stock car racing" and nobody can say it isn't true.

[Souporscotty]

Originally Posted by Yelk

Smokey Yunick was one of the biggest cheater of them all and people thought he was great. How can this be?

Because he was, by far, the SMARTEST cheater.

[LSC9901]

As usual after reading both of your posts I again feel enlightened. When you are not a fan of one of the drivers who get penalized under these situations, it is easier to just say "Tough stuff for him". The reality is as you explained it, the driver suffers for someone elses indescretion. The owner points are a very important factor in the top 35 battle so I agree that when the violation cannot absolutely be attributed to the driver then the driver shouldn't receive any demerits.

Now the owner is most certainly a different situation. If MWR cannot keep its cars in that magic top 35 I would guess that the $$$ from Toyota may begin to dry up. Whether Toyota knew of the violation or not someone needs to be responsible. Since trying to fine or penalize the Toyota CEO in Japan somewhere is fruitless then it must fall back on the owner. Taking manufacturers points is a fair avenue to follow.

Once again I think banning is certainly a tough call. Even a one race ban is tough. I will always fall back on my feeling that NA$CAR doesn't know how to dispense justice fairly so before they do any banning they need to make some very black and white rules and stick to them no matter who's team it is that violates whatever rule.

Originally Posted by BringBackWilkesboro

Such as section 12-4-A, Actions Detrimental to Stock Car Racing. Actions detrimental to stock car racing can pretty much be anything NASCAR doesn't think is right, and a violation of that section is what usually warrants the steepest penalty. But since it covers such a wide area, NASCAR can basically choose when a team has done something "detrimental to stock car racing" and nobody can say it isn't true.

For anyone who has worked in a large company you know that this rule is in every contract. It is just one of those rules that management uses when they cannot find any other reason to go after you. It is a pretty liberally written rule, but used by many, many organizations. I know the outfit I used to work for used it to their advantage.

Keep up the great posts guys !!!

[Souporscotty]

Actually, when Smokey was in the game NASCAR was not about parity. It was about who had the fastest car. There were no templates.(God, remember the 6 foot spoilers on the MOPARS?) There was a whole lot more "grey area" therefore alot more chances to bend the rules. Despite being a grade school drop-out, Smokey was an engineering genius.

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by Souporscotty

Actually, when Smokey was in the game NASCAR was not about parity. It was about who had the fastest car. There were no templates.(God, remember the 6 foot spoilers on the MOPARS?) There was a whole lot more "grey area" therefore alot more chances to bend the rules. Despite being a grade school drop-out, Smokey was an engineering genius.

Ohhh man. You're touching on some elements at the very beginnings of the road to COT. The 'ol 6 foot spoilers were an example of the competing manufacturers of the time greed to "sell on Monday what wins on Sunday". Got to the point where Jr. Johnson got to pleading for something to be done before "they" killed someone. And anyone who knows anything about Jr. J would hardly see him as some form of wimp. The manufacturers response was basically - shut up and drive it hayseed or we'll find someone else that will. The "they" that was put in a position to help was Big Bill and company. And the alterations to the "stock" car began in earnest.