[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Yelk

What we have today in Busch is something that was started before the hated/evil Bryan took over NASCAR, so first, he can't be made the whipping post for this. The Busch Series evolved from the Late Model Sportsman Series which ran mainly on the local short tracks accross the South, save Daytona, The Rock, Darlington and a few others where Cup ran. In an effort to make the Busch Series more successful, NASCAR (not Bryan) did away with the short tracks and made most Busch races a companion race witho Cup, which brought more Cup drivers to Busch. Now, I don't think I'm smarter than the people who run NASCAR (because if I were, I'd have multi-millions) like so many who are unhappy with what they do (so many like to call it their opinions). If it were my opinion that everything was wrong with NASCAR as so many message board "experts", I'd have quit following it a long time ago. I don't "cotton" to ditto everything that posters think makes them sound cool or expert. Yeah, it's cool to bash NASCAR on message boards, because it's the thing to do. I call it...monkey see, monkey do.

Be careful of what you ask for...you just might get it!

What we have and what could be are always two different things. Bryan may not have started the change but he has done nothing to stop it. Any good company manager will think outside the box to make whatever product or service the best it can be. In the case of minor league racing for those who do not get to run get no experience. The major leaguers get a free test on the track. When Mark Martin (for example) retires who will replalce him ??? Someone with little or no experience ????

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

I'm just curious which approach you, Yelk, as an individual (and for that matter, everyone else on the board) happen to favor?

Yelk I think we are all curious as to where you stand.

"If it were my opinion that everything was wrong with NASCAR as so many message board "experts", I'd have quit following it a long time ago. I don't "cotton" to ditto everything that posters think makes them sound cool or expert. Yeah, it's cool to bash NASCAR on message boards, because it's the thing to do. I call it...monkey see, monkey do. "

Some of your posts make the statement about "Cool" and if you thought everything was wrong you'd quit following the sport, yet you have yet to voice an opinion. You must have one that the rest of us can debate with you.

[BringBackWilkesboro]

Originally Posted by Yelk

What we have today in Busch is something that was started before the hated/evil Bryan took over NASCAR, so first, he can't be made the whipping post for this. The Busch Series evolved from the Late Model Sportsman Series which ran mainly on the local short tracks accross the South, save Daytona, The Rock, Darlington and a few others where Cup ran. In an effort to make the Busch Series more successful, NASCAR (not Bryan) did away with the short tracks and made most Busch races a companion race witho Cup, which brought more Cup drivers to Busch. Now, I don't think I'm smarter than the people who run NASCAR (because if I were, I'd have multi-millions) like so many who are unhappy with what they do (so many like to call it their opinions). If it were my opinion that everything was wrong with NASCAR as so many message board "experts", I'd have quit following it a long time ago. I don't "cotton" to ditto everything that posters think makes them sound cool or expert. Yeah, it's cool to bash NASCAR on message boards, because it's the thing to do. I call it...monkey see, monkey do.

Be careful of what you ask for...you just might get it!

Yelk, I don't see what the problem is with people voicing their opinions on this board, and that is exactly what they are, opinions. I don't know about anyone else, but I sure as hell don't bash NASCAR because it makes me sound cool, and by no means do I consider myself an expert. I really don't give a damn what it makes me sound like. It's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. I bash NASCAR because of moves they make that are questionable to me. I think what you call monkey see monkey do in reality is just a few people that, dare I say it, agree on something. I would love to hear who you think is bashing NASCAR because it's cool? How are you so sure that it isn't their honest opinion? And I won't quit following NASCAR because I still like it. They will make decisions I don't like, but it is still NASCAR, still racing, and that's what I like to see.

[Quality88]

Spill it Yelk.... What's your honest OPINION?

[Bob Tanner]

For the record, I care (for what that's worth to NASCAR).

In the state Cup Lite is in now, it would be a death sentence to cut the Cup Raiders out. (Damn it!!!) NASCAR wants the Series to be exactly what it is, Cup Lite. It's encouraging major sponsor investment into the Series and the sponsor money won't be there unless the big-named (read: Cup Raider) drivers are there. The only way they'll back a new, unknown driver is if he is driving for a Cup team who is using the Cup Lite Series as a driver development plan.

The Cup Raiders are necessary today because the fan NASCAR has targeted isn't a race fan, but rather a driver fan. They don't go to the races to see racing. They go to see "Their Driver." And, almost without exception that driver is a Cup Raider.

This new, improved NASCAR has created a situation where, IF the Cup Lite Series is to continue it must do one of three things:
(1) Continue as it is now, letting the Cup Raider get all the glory, the money and get practice on Saturday for the race on Sunday.
(2) Give the Series its own identity. It has been rumored that letting them run different cars (Cameros, Mustangs, etc., etc) might be one way to go. Maybe this and infusion of new sponsor money from either Walmart or Dunkin Donut might be the ticket.
(3) Do the same thing they do in MLB; let the successful Series (Cup) do some revenue sharing with the less successful Series (Cup Lite). Just like a government subsidy. It might work. After all, Karl Marx wrote in Das Kapital: "For each according to his means to each according to his needs."

I'd like to see #2; If it goes to #3, I'd rather see the whole Series just disappear. However, in this brave new world of The New NASCAR, I'm betting it'll be #1. I just don't think NA$CAR sees anything basically wrong.

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

For the record, I care (for what that's worth to NASCAR).

In the state Cup Lite is in now, it would be a death sentence to cut the Cup Raiders out. (Damn it!!!) NASCAR wants the Series to be exactly what it is, Cup Lite. It's encouraging major sponsor investment into the Series and the sponsor money won't be there unless the big-named (read: Cup Raider) drivers are there. The only way they'll back a new, unknown driver is if he is driving for a Cup team who is using the Cup Lite Series as a driver development plan.

In bold above is "spot on" as some say. The unsustainable financial condition of the series without the big name teams and their drivers will not allow much change in the near future, if ever.

Have close acquaintance that ran his oldest son in the Hooter's series a few (2-4) years, quitting last year. Had what us (me) common folks would view as considerable financial resources and backing. What got him out was the very significant influx of monies from Cup teams in support of their "farm team" drivers. His "considerable financial resources" paled in comparison.

Another close acquaintance ran what was then called the Featherlite Modified Tour (Touring Series on NASCAR.com now?). He and I built quarter midget cars for our kids to race. Things started to go relatively well for him when he gained $$ and equipment from DEI.

Point in all of this? Increasingly the "farm" for Cup is NOT Busch and the significant Cup teams are doing their "American Idol" thing elsewhere.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by wingkey1

In bold above is "spot on" as some say. The unsustainable financial condition of the series without the big name teams and their drivers will not allow much change in the near future, if ever.

Have close acquaintance that ran his oldest son in the Hooter's series a few (2-4) years, quitting last year. Had what us (me) common folks would view as considerable financial resources and backing. What got him out was the very significant influx of monies from Cup teams in support of their "farm team" drivers. His "considerable financial resources" paled in comparison.

Another close acquaintance ran what was then called the Featherlite Modified Tour (Touring Series on NASCAR.com now?). He and I built quarter midget cars for our kids to race. Things started to go relatively well for him when he gained $$ and equipment from DEI.

Point in all of this? Increasingly the "farm" for Cup is NOT Busch and the significant Cup teams are doing their "American Idol" thing elsewhere.

So, as I read it, Wing, it would appear that NASCAR has s**t-canned another NASCAR "tradition" (the Sportsman/Busch Grand National Series') and is replacing it with a way to entice people to spend even more money, on Saturday to see "Their driver" race.

Hooters, All-Pro, D.I.R.T., ARCA and the other series' are probably pretty safe because these races are attended mostly by race fans and not driver fans.

You just gotta love this brave, new world of NASCAR.

[KENVOL]

The only thing I can see to help the situation is for the Busch drivers to drive real stock cars. Would that not be cool. I would love to see the old style stock cars racing again. I know this will not happen but I am really going to miss my Chevys ruling the tracks. I am a Chevy person and follow the Chevy drivers. I don't know how the car of tomorrow is going to affect my watching of the sport. So maybe they could keep the manufactures running in Bush and use the COT in Cup.

[wingkey1]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

So, as I read it, Wing, it would appear that NASCAR has s**t-canned another NASCAR "tradition" (the Sportsman/Busch Grand National Series') and is replacing it with a way to entice people to spend even more money, on Saturday to see "Their driver" race.

Hooters, All-Pro, D.I.R.T., ARCA and the other series' are probably pretty safe because these races are attended mostly by race fans and not driver fans.

You just gotta love this brave, new world of NASCAR.

I suppose some may see/express it that way. I was simply offering up info that I personally could "attest" to as it had an affect on two folks that I've known for quite some time. Not offered as conclusive, speculative, or damning. Just Factual.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by wingkey1

I suppose some may see/express it that way. I was simply offering up info that I personally could "attest" to as it had an affect on two folks that I've known for quite some time. Not offered as conclusive, speculative, or damning. Just Factual.

No offense taken. I enjoyed your post. It pointed out a point of view I hadn't previously looked at. I, personally, appreciated your post very much. It just gave me more reason to believe the way I do, intended or not.

Good post.

[trollmc08]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

I won't argue totally against the statement that the cars should/could be different so that there is no transfer of info to the cup drivers ... BUT... how will they learn about the cup cars if they don't drive something similar.

Keep in mind nothing you've said is wrong. I'm just stating an opinion to further the discussion.

good point didn't think about it that way. this is why I like this forum so much you git other opinions that if you listen you might change your mind. Thanks LSC got to rethink this one.