[BringBackWilkesboro]

I just came across a column on NASCAR.com that is sure to start one hell of a debate (another one).

Columns - newsjournalonline.com

I respect this Dudley fellow. He seems to be just like alot of longtime NASCAR fans. Things are changing he don't like it. What bothers me most is "And they just follow the leader. That's all they ever do there. That track wasn't made for NASCAR." I'm afraid the same is even more true for IRL Dudley. Every time I watch an Indy race, I see nothing but follow the leader. No, IMS wasn't made for NASCAR, but it sure has adapted.

I think this will be quite an interesting read for you folks.

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by BringBackWilkesboro

I just came across a column on NASCAR.com that is sure to start one hell of a debate (another one).

well i read the article, and i agree....it probably will turn into a heated debate, but for all the wrong reasons

alot of you see snooty IRL fans turning their noses up at NASCAR......and yet have a look around, i think just as many NASCAR fans look down on the IRL

i bet many of you will realise that NASCAR is the largest racing circut in North America......how may of you realise it is just a small blip on the racing map of the world ?

open wheel racing is large in the world where NASCAR would barely be a footnote, if they have even heard of it at all........F1 sound familiar ?

it may surprise some of you as well to learn many great NASCAR drivers started as open wheel drivers

Hallman seemed surprised to learn that Stewart's IRL involvement went beyond his two attempts to run the Indy 500 and Coca Cola 600 on the same day -- "He won the IRL championship in '97," Hallman is told..

yeah Tony Stewart

oh.....how about Jeff Gordon.......as much as i hate him he started out as a great open wheel driver

Mario Andretti.......AJ Foyt.....both had success in NASCAR

now dont get me wrong, im a huge NASCAR fan, but i respect all forms of racing.........and turn my nose up at none

in auto racing i think people tend to shun what they dont understand.....what they were not brought up with

i was lucky.........as a child i was brought to see the Daytona 500.....and the Monaco Grand Prix

[trollmc08]

I read it and don't like it. I my self am first a race fan second a NASCAR race fan I don't turn up my nose at any racing don't care if the wheels are covered or not or even if it don't have wheels at all (boats) 4 or 2 heck give me a few people on unicycles with engines and I'll Chere them on I know I'm not the only one that feels this way. The thing I disliked the most is them thinking a driver should be baned from open wheels for life if he races in NASCAR, to me that is just plane stupid I would rather see the race no mater who is in it. sounds to me that they have IRL fans not race fans. sounds like some of our Friends here.

[LSC9901]

I guess I don't view this as something that is going to turn into some major debate/argument. Like Troll I consider myself a fan of racing. NASCAR is first on my list and everything else is second. I'm not a big fan of open wheel racing. Probably no reason other than I enjoy NASCAR more. I don't find myself looking down on any race fans, no matter what their style of racing is. I too, turn on the speed channel whenever I can and look for whatever is racing at the moment. I might even put power boats (whatever the class) ahead of many forms of auto/bike racing. Hell I even enjoy those rigs that run in the moats.

Like any sport there will always be those that have a distaste for anything that isn't in their narrow view of enjoyment. As for bold statements like "ban them from ever returning" .. well that just isn't going to happen. Just as many NASCAR fans are yearning to see Montoya get into NASCAR full time, I'm sure there would be just as many happy to see him return to hs roots in racing.

The article shows that there are fans on each end of extreme. I like all motor sports to some degree but Dudley & Cathy seem to be just the opposite. That's no sin.

[wingkey1]

The two are so totally different only those/some that see all motorsports as simply "cars" going round and round would be at the needed level of oblivious to struggle with comparison.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by BringBackWilkesboro

I just came across a column on NASCAR.com that is sure to start one hell of a debate (another one).

Columns - newsjournalonline.com

I respect this Dudley fellow. He seems to be just like alot of longtime NASCAR fans. Things are changing he don't like it. What bothers me most is "And they just follow the leader. That's all they ever do there. That track wasn't made for NASCAR." I'm afraid the same is even more true for IRL Dudley. Every time I watch an Indy race, I see nothing but follow the leader. No, IMS wasn't made for NASCAR, but it sure has adapted.

I think this will be quite an interesting read for you folks.

Fantastic article, Wilks. "Stir the pot...?" Naw, not me...

However, I hate to go on a rant here, but...

What the Dudley character and his wife portray in the article is EXACTLY what is happening to today's NASCAR. I do mean, E-X-A-C-T-L-Y!

I was born and raise just north of the Brickyard (38 miles to be exact) and was taken to my first Indy time trial and race in 1952, before many of you were even born. That was back when the 500 was "The Greatest Spectacle in racing," when the 500 was worth FIA F1 (nee: Grand Prix) points, and when the engines were where they were meant to be, IN FRONT OF THE DRIVER.
Indy fans were race fans and the drivers were race drivers. Period. It just doesn't get any simpler than that! Until Glenn Kurtis built the roadster chassis, the cars that ran the Brickyard (then the entire front straight was still bricks) were the same cars that they ran the flat mile at Milwaukee and the circle dirt track at Langhorne. Pretty basic, eh?
The drivers were RACE DRIVERS, not pampered, over-hyped primadonas. They thought nothing of running pavement AND dirt, in anything with wheels. Stock cars were something that they looked down on, they were just something to race. The examples of Dick Linder, Jim and Dick Rathmann, Mel Larson, Ralph Liguori, Troy Ruttman and Al Keller immediately come to mind.
Al that changed in the mid 60's when Jimmy Clack showed up at Indy with that damn Lotus rear-engined weed whacker-on-steroids. All of a sudden, almost overnight front engined cars and oval racing wasn't "refined" enough. It "wasn't the way they do in in Europe."
Auto racing in the USA (deny it or not but in the mid 60's, Champ car racing WAS auto racing in the USA, as a whole, I don't care what the feeling is in the south) changed to a collection of technological and aerodynamic contraptions masquerading as race cars, real race tracks (Langhorne, Ontario, etc.,etc., were replaced with malls and road courses, and we suddenly got a lot of drivers who had English as a second language.
The fans changed from being old-time race fans to the current, Dudley-like, "wine and brae" crowd who followed the sport because it was chic and the "in thing" to do.
This type of fan didn't know crap about an engine, didn't know a fuel injector from a quick change rear end, and cringed at getting his hands greasy changing his spark plugs. But boy, did he know a lot about "His" driver.

When NASCAR FINALLY came to the Brickyard in 1994, this fan went catatonic. Sacrilege! What he refused to realize was that INDY was designed for STOCK CARS! It was stock cars that raced there until the 30's. All that happened in 1994 was that NASCAR's last vestiges of actual stock car mentality racing got a crack at the country's most historic track before it went the way of Indy racing. before NASCAR became a collection of technological monstrosities with pampered, self-serving, drivers, multi-millionaires as owners, and ticket prices that only the affluent can realistically afford.

When you mentally picture this Dudley fellow, you are picturing the typical "New" NASCAR Fan of the year 2010, or so.

Good bye race fan; hello driver fan. Good bye stock car racing; hello Formula NASCAR.

TO paraphrase Hamlet: "Alas, poor NASCAR. I knew it well."

[trollmc08]

Well Bob! I gess you said it all nothing left to say, good post.

[Lefturn]

Good post Bob. I won't ask you age but its safe to say you've done a few more laps around the sun than I have.

I think that the biggest difference between open wheel and NASCAR is that the sacitoning body at NASCAR has had a plan and stuck to it, also the drivers have bought into it (to date anyway).

If you look at the IRL/CHAMP split of several years ago it was a huge mistake. It immediately divided the open wheel race fans. And if you look that the writer of the article as 'Joe Open Wheel' fan he is going to see nothing past the Brickyard no matter what you say.

I have to say that I am a fan of all racing BUT I put NASCAR at the top of the list because it is anything but follow the leader and the drivers are all top notch.

F1 is over at turn 1. Actually, qualifying. And the TV coverage sucks.

CHAMP car is fun to watch when Paul Tracy is beating up the French, but aside from that its a small field of not so well known drivers.

IRL is great racing but aside from a half dozen or so great drivers its a bunch of lesser knowns also.

If people choose to hate NASCAR then they are simply missing out on some of the best racing in North America. Their loss!

[BringBackWilkesboro]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

The fans changed from being old-time race fans to the current, Dudley-like, "wine and brae" crowd who followed the sport because it was chic and the "in thing" to do.
This type of fan didn't know crap about an engine, didn't know a fuel injector from a quick change rear end, and cringed at getting his hands greasy changing his spark plugs. But boy, did he know a lot about "His" driver.

That is exactly the reason I got into NASCAR. When I was a young boy in '69, I was taken down to a race in Macon, GA. The race was won by Bobby Issac. David Pearson was second and Richard Petty was third. "this is pretty cool" I said. Guys racing cars that looked like the one my father drove. I was amazed by the idea. My father told me this went on all the time. He'd read me results from the paper (if they were there) and occasionally bring me to a race. I was beggining to like this "NASCAR" thing. I kept hearing those names, Issac, Pearson and Petty. They became my favorite drivers. I started watching Bud Lindeman's show, Car and Track in the early 70s and as I reached my teen years I understood why I liked the sport so much. I could relate to it. I didn't give a damn whether it was "in" or not, and I wasn't concerned with how they did it in Europe. I understood NASCAR. The cars, the engines, the people. I understood all of it. I think, actually I'm pretty sure that is also the reason old school fans view NASCAR as an American sport. Americans related to it. But I respect Evans' side too. It's nearly the same thing. Everything he understands is now changing. That as you said Bob is exactly what is happening with NASCAR.

[simple simon]

welcome to the forum dude........hope you have as great a time here as i do

Originally Posted by Lefturn

I have to say that I am a fan of all racing BUT I put NASCAR at the top of the list because it is anything but follow the leader and the drivers are all top notch.

im not so sure about that

ESPN.com - NASCAR NEXTEL Cup Drivers ...i submit to you that more then half of these drivers are far below top notch

also keep in mind, as i said above, some of NASCARS top drivers started out in open wheel

F1 is over at turn 1. Actually, qualifying. And the TV coverage sucks.

i agree totally.......and F1 will never have a real big following in America

CHAMP car is fun to watch when Paul Tracy is beating up the French, but aside from that its a small field of not so well known drivers.

IRL is great racing but aside from a half dozen or so great drivers its a bunch of lesser knowns also.

that is their 5 biggest problems

1, most teams have sponsors average Joe race fan dont identify with....products they dont use on a daily basis

2, most drivers are not well known......they are not adequately put out to the public

3, most of the drivers that are well know do not seem to associate well with racing fans in general......Joe fan didnt grow up like an Unser or an Andretti......they grew up like Dale Earnhardt or Junior Johnson

4, average joe fan doesnt have the oppertunity to spend their Saturdays tooling around a track in an open wheel car.......they can however tool around a short track in a Chevy or a Ford

5, cost........i just looked at a ticket broker........lowest price for a Daytona 500 ticket $12.......lowest price for an Indy 500 ticket $42

i think these factors make it much easier for average Joe race fan to identify with NASCAR then with IRL


as for exciting races and follow the leader......one of the most exciting things i ever saw on a track that didnt involve a crash was a near crash......when Danny Sullivan did a 360 in his car, regained control and went on to win the Indy 500

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by BringBackWilkesboro

Guys racing cars that looked like the one my father drove.

thats exactly what im saying

the average American has reason to identify with NASCAR.....they drive the same car i do and they are sponsored by the same beer i drink

IRL can never make that connection on the same level

also i think it makes a difference.....like i said.......most fans i think see many IRL drivers as the spoiled second generation.......Little Al had it all handed to him

as opposed to NASCAR old timers that showed up to a track with a crap car they borrowed.........and even newer NASCAR talent like Ricky Craven, who will never be the best driver in the world but is someone to identify with.....as i grew up watching Ricky race at our local track

[simple simon]

one other thing i think draws more people to NASCAR then IRL.....you can easily see a natural progression

i think most every race fan in America sees basically the same progression from childhood fan to NASCAR driver that lets them say.....hey, there's a chance i could do that, and i see the route to take


local track most anyone can race......id say the classes are basically the same all over the nation and the progression basically goes like this
Street Stock

6 Cylinder Charger

Late Model Sportsman

Busch North

Busch Grand National

Nextel Cup


and you can see how you could climb the ladder........just like so many Nextel drivers have

now just how do you progress to the IRL ?........hell i dont know.....and i dont think many fans do........yeah i know there are indy lights and go-carts........but it just isnt the same

[BringBackWilkesboro]

Originally Posted by simple simon

as opposed to NASCAR old timers that showed up to a track with a crap car they borrowed.........and even newer NASCAR talent like Ricky Craven, who will never be the best driver in the world but is someone to identify with.....as i grew up watching Ricky race at our local track

Great Point! I moved to NH when I was young. When Craven came into the NASCAR Picture in '91, He was the one I followed. He wasn't the best driver, hell, the fans just getting into the sport may not even know who he is, but he was local. A driver you saw at Stafford, Oxford an other tracks around New England was now big time (almost, in Ricky's case). And Ricky was a great local guy to follow. He climbed the ladder you talked about. '91 Busch North ROY, '92 Grand National ROY and '95 Cup ROY. He proved himself early with Larry Hedrick and made the move everybody thought would turn him into a champion with Hendrick. Unfortunatley, a crash at Texas would put a stop to that. It felt great to see him bounce back and win those races with Cal Wells. That is another sign that he was special. He made somewhat of a name for himself with sub-par teams like Hedrick and Wells. Who knows what he could have done at HMS had he not had that crash. Anyway, I'm getting off subject.

[clutch]

Its as if they respected their captian, were loyal and stood by him, whilst the rest of the crew jumped ship.........and now that they realise their ship may indeed be sinking they are becoming resentful......I feel for them.

Neither series enjoyed much success since the split

[Lefturn]

Originally Posted by clutch

Neither series enjoyed much success since the split

Agreed. But, I still enjoy watching it on TV. I have no favorite drivers in either series nor do I kick myself if I miss a race as I do with NASCAR but I do appreciate what they do.

I still fantasize about the day they get back together, but may be waiting a long time.