[Bob Tanner]

I heard a couple of things yesterday which may provide some fuel for discussion here:

Yesterday two media types were debating whether fighting at a race should be tolerated or condoned. A couple of example were brought up, namely Jimmy Spencer's trying to rearrange Kurt Busch's nose a couple of years ago and the "fight," (term used extremely loosely) between Matt Kenseth and Jeffy-Pooh this past season.

One side said that fighting is, and has always been an integral part of stock car racing, it shows how emotionally involved the drivers and crew members are in the competition, and it sells tickets and brings in viewers the following race. Would NASCAR ever have been as popular as it is if Cale Yarbrough and Donnie and Bobby Allison hadn't have duked it out in front of the cameras back in 1982?

Conversely, the other side remembered that NASCAR is considered a family sport and is fighting the message we want our kinder to get? The speaker also said that fighting is juvenile and it makes the people involved look like a bunch of kids on a playground. He also asked if we really want NASCAR to lower itself to the level of the NTA (my personal acronym for National Thug Assoc - a.k.a. NBA)?

IF fisticuffs do ensue, what penalty is appropriate? A monetary fine? A loss of points? Having to sit out the following race? Go to anger management and aggression therapy?

Later, on Tony Stewart's radio show (Lilsexy08, you should get SIRIUS. Your boy has a weekly radio show every Tuesday night. He and Matt Yoakem are on for three hours) Tony addressed his displeasure with Opie (Carl Edwards). I'll have to para phase here but the gist of Tony's statement was, "If Carl ever threatens me again he better be ready to follow through. I have $50,000 set aside to pay my fine when I take care of him. I can even come up with $100,000 if I have to."

Was this statement, made publicly on the air, necessary? Should NASCAR call Tony to the big red, yellow or whatever colour it will be this year, trailer before the season even starts? Should Tony and Carl meet next week in Daytona, have a candle lite dinner together and gaze deeply into each other's eyes, then take a long walk, hand in hand, on the beach afterward?

What does our little crew here think about physical violence stemming from on-track actions? I believe we'd all agree that using a car as a weapon of choice is verboten and should be penalized severely. I'm talking about fighting, pushing, slapping, kicking, and physically threatening gestures.

Comments?

[LSC9901]

I truly was ready to be on my way out the door as I was reading todays postings. I just cannot leave without adding at least one comment for the day concerning fighting. My take on it is that there is no room for it. Naturally that will not prevent it and anything that NA$CAR tries to do will have very little effect on actually stopping it. One point of view is that someone can actually get hurt during these moments of rage. It would be a great thing if you could hit someone to vent your anger, have them not get hurt and have all the bad emotional feelings disappear right after. It would also be nice if I won a lottery ... but that probably isn't going to happen.

As for the penalties involved .... that can be a can of worms also. Being the structured, black & white guy that I am, I feel that whatever the rules say is what should be imposed on all sides if they were both actively involved. My feeling is hit them where it hurts. If fighting is against the rules and they do it then lets maximize the penalty. Points, fines and suspension. Sound a little dramatic ??? How would you feel if you hit someone and they ended up in a coma for life ? I know the chances of that happening are slim but if we are going to punish to the hilt then we should assume that the damage caused by the fight could be excessive.

As I've said and I really believe it, nothing is going to stop immediate rage, but tyere needs to be a penalty for that rage. Maybe the next time you'll think twice about shoving Matt Kenseth if it is going to cost you 100 points, $100,000 and entry into the next race. By themselves those penalties might be bearable but the combination of them would have gotten some drivers a free trip out of NASCAR by their sponsors.

Since I am not a fan of Tony Stewarts attitude I think NASCAR should inform him that public threats like that one on the radio will carry a much larger fine than $100,000. Because he is a determined driver and a winner doesn't give him the right to threaten when and whoever he wants. Sounds like his first swing could be called premeditated in a court of law. That ought to be worth a few thousand bucks.

It might also help if the networks were a little less ready to show the fighting. Put the race on a 7 second delay so they can "bleep" that before it actually hits the air.

Simply put ... NO fighting or else MAJOR penalties. How long would Home Depot sponsor Tony if he were suspended for a week ???

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

I truly was ready to be on my way out the door as I was reading todays postings. I just cannot leave without adding at least one comment for the day concerning fighting. My take on it is that there is no room for it. Naturally that will not prevent it and anything that NA$CAR tries to do will have very little effect on actually stopping it. One point of view is that someone can actually get hurt during these moments of rage. It would be a great thing if you could hit someone to vent your anger, have them not get hurt and have all the bad emotional feelings disappear right after. It would also be nice if I won a lottery ... but that probably isn't going to happen.

As for the penalties involved .... that can be a can of worms also. Being the structured, black & white guy that I am, I feel that whatever the rules say is what should be imposed on all sides if they were both actively involved. My feeling is hit them where it hurts. If fighting is against the rules and they do it then lets maximize the penalty. Points, fines and suspension. Sound a little dramatic ??? How would you feel if you hit someone and they ended up in a coma for life ? I know the chances of that happening are slim but if we are going to punish to the hilt then we should assume that the damage caused by the fight could be excessive.

As I've said and I really believe it, nothing is going to stop immediate rage, but tyere needs to be a penalty for that rage. Maybe the next time you'll think twice about shoving Matt Kenseth if it is going to cost you 100 points, $100,000 and entry into the next race. By themselves those penalties might be bearable but the combination of them would have gotten some drivers a free trip out of NASCAR by their sponsors.

Since I am not a fan of Tony Stewarts attitude I think NASCAR should inform him that public threats like that one on the radio will carry a much larger fine than $100,000. Because he is a determined driver and a winner doesn't give him the right to threaten when and whoever he wants. Sounds like his first swing could be called premeditated in a court of law. That ought to be worth a few thousand bucks.

It might also help if the networks were a little less ready to show the fighting. Put the race on a 7 second delay so they can "bleep" that before it actually hits the air.

Simply put ... NO fighting or else MAJOR penalties. How long would Home Depot sponsor Tony if he were suspended for a week ???

I basically agree with all you say. With the exceptions of Shane Hmiel, the Grubb boy in Cup Lite (Kevin? His first name eludes me), the Brothers Busch, and Scott Wimmer, NASCAR's been able to keep a pretty much squeaky-clean persona.

My only problem is: Can/will NASCAR actually enforce physical violence equally and fairly (redundancy alert!)? Let's look at a couple of examples...
Junior utters a scatological word during an on-camera interview and gets a slap on the wrist. Another driver commits the same crime (sorry, I can't recall who and when but I remember it happening) and draws a sizeable fine?

Last season at the Joliet track, Jeffie-Pooh intentionally spins Kenseth (A continuance of a previous shoving match?). He goes on for the win, the crowd wants him drawn and quartered and what does NASCAR do? A variable "Tsk! Tsk!"

Two weeks later Stewart does basically the same thing to Opie. He draws a penalty.

I think fighting is wrong, add nothing to the competition and gives NASCAR a black eye. However, as a governing body, NASCAR mirrors our Federal, Imperial Government; it never saw a problem that if it addressed it, it couldn't make it worse. If a driver uses his car as a weapon of retaliation, then have he, and his team, sit out the next event. Period, end of report. But, if they engage in pushing, shoving, slapping, hair-pulling, and the like, it falls under the broad category of ca-ca occurs (Tanner's way of politely saying "Sh*t happens) Just take the cameras off them, go to a break, or let DW tell the world how great he once was.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

I think fighting is wrong, add nothing to the competition and gives NASCAR a black eye. However, as a governing body, NASCAR mirrors our Federal, Imperial Government; it never saw a problem that if it addressed it, it couldn't make it worse. If a driver uses his car as a weapon of retaliation, then have he, and his team, sit out the next event. Period, end of report. But, if they engage in pushing, shoving, slapping, hair-pulling, and the like, it falls under the broad category of ca-ca occurs (Tanner's way of politely saying "Sh*t happens) Just take the cameras off them, go to a break, or let DW tell the world how great he once was.

Let me see. How do I say this without sounding like I'm talking from both sides of my mouth. I agree and disagree. There .... that wasn't so hard. I am all for Major penalties when the vehicle is intentionally involved. CASE CLOSED. BIG PENALTIES. The physical contact, shoving, slapping, whatever. I don't like it because of the possibility that someone can get hurt bad. When Jeff went after Matt he had a helmet on. In a fit of rage who knows if you'll get stupid and try for a head butt because you already know you are physically safe. What if you shove me hard enough to knock me down and break my arm ? There are a million scenerios and most of them probably would never happen but from my point of view it is an assault and a price should be paid.

Didn't Jr. have to pay a fine for uttering the scatological word ???

[clutch]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

NASCAR

Simply put ... NO fighting or else MAJOR penalties. How long would Home Depot sponsor Tony if he were suspended for a week ???

Maybe Tony shouldnt be suspended for a week.........maybe Home Depot should be...

Hit the Driver where it really hurts and suspend sponsorship for a week. Make him run a sponsor free car for a week. Sponsors wouldnt put up with the crap for long and as the "sponsor clean" car drives around the track it would hilite what a bad boy he has been

Bob, must be great to listen to the chat on sirius, wish I had access

[Quality88]

Forgive me for being synical here... but penalties don't mean squat if they are not enforced equally across the board. Jeff Gordon deliberately dumps Matt Kenseth and Nascar turns the other way... Tony Stewart gets after Carl Edwards and he is fined and so on. It doesn't matter about penalties if they are not enforced across the board. As far as fighting well I have mixed emotions. I think If two drivers wish to get into each others faces and spit and cuss just to vent then let them. If they choose to engage in exchanging blows then well.... It depends... If they choose to do so then they get what they deserve. If they wind up hurt it's their own fault they should have known better. Na$car should keep their collective a$$es out of it should the fight take place out of the public eye(it's between consenting adults that wish to engage in a childish manor). Na$car should also get on the Networks butts for lookin for the fight. It's ridiculous.

Yes people can get hurt. It's their own fault though if they wish to spar. They made that choice. Let them live with it. Sponsors should step up to the plate and get involved. I think Home Depot fined Tony once haven't they?

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by clutch

Bob, must be great to listen to the chat on sirius, wish I had access

Don't get me wrong. I'm not pushing SIRIUS. I gripes me to pay for subscription radio but
(a) I spend a sizeable amount of time on the road, or otherwise in front of a radio and satelitte radio gives me what I want to listen to.
(b) for me it's tax deductable, so that takes alot of the sting out of paying.

I had XM for five years but SIRIUS got a channel dedicated to NASCAR and XM went to a NASCAR/ARCA/IRL/CART (or whatever its called these days - I call it Formula Indy). XM"s racing channel head, Clare B. Lang continues to have no insight or opinions on any matter of substance and has turned the channel into an audio/racing version of PEOPLE Magazine. They have her show (3 hrs) each afternoon and another call-in show from 1900-2100 each weekday evening. The remainder of the days schedule is taken up by MRN and PRN reruns of old NASCAR races (some may actually enjoy this but, for me personally, it's kind of like reliving the dancing portion of your senior prom over and over and over and over and over an...). They also play a lot of SPEED Channel programs. Believe me, for the most part TV programs, which by their very nature are very visual, DO NOT fare well on radio.

SIRIUS, OTOH, has four hours of discussion (0600-1000 CST) with Marty Snyder and David Poole.

This is followed by four hours of phones and discussion with John Kernan and rotating former drivers . The drivers consist of Buddy Baker, Phil Parsons, Ricky Craven, Randy Lajoie and others.

This is followed by four hours of Dave Moody and a girl named Suzie Armstrong. Moody is GREAT! He holds most of the same opinions many of us here hold and he isn't shy about voiving them!

They replay most of these shows through the night.

In addition, they have Eli Gold and MRN's Track Talk each Tuesday, followed by three hours of Tony Stewart and Matt Yoakem. I have trouble listening to this because it almost always ends up being a big soft and cuddly love-fest between Smoke and his adoring fans.

Once Speed Weeks begin they'll carry PRN's Pit Reporters each Wednesday evening, plus have live coverage of ALL CTS, Cup Lite and Cup qualifications and races. In addition, CTS and Cup Lite coverage will start an hour before the flag and end one hour after. Cup coverage will start three hours before the flag flys and last for two hours after it falls.

It's an offer I couldn'r refuse.

,

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by Quality88

). Na$car should also get on the Networks butts for lookin for the fight. It's ridiculous.

Yes people can get hurt. It's their own fault though if they wish to spar. They made that choice. Let them live with it. Sponsors should step up to the plate and get involved. I think Home Depot fined Tony once haven't they?

EXCELLENT POINT, Dustin!!!

Have you noticed how, whenever some dispute arises between two prominent drivers, the reporters weasels will climb all over each other shoving a mic in their faces dropping leading questions which are easily interpreted as , "OK, What are YOU going to do about it?" Then, instead of dropping the matter it gets blown way out of proportion and ends up as the lead topic on EVERY talk show and sports cast. I've seen this happen over and over.

It reminds me of William Randolph Herst (a newspaper magnate and owner of the New York Sun) sending his star reporter, William Harding Davis, to Havana in 1898 to cover what Americans thought would be the Spanish-American War. When Davis got to Havana he found all was calm. He wired Herst of the peaceful Cuba. Herst immediately wired back, "You say that there is no war. Then start one!" Before one of your smart alecks says it, I DO NOT personally remember this happening. I read it in a historical book!
That's the mentality I see with today's racing hacks covering perceived altercations.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by Quality88

Forgive me for being synical here... but penalties don't mean squat if they are not enforced equally across the board. Jeff Gordon deliberately dumps Matt Kenseth and Nascar turns the other way... Tony Stewart gets after Carl Edwards and he is fined and so on. It doesn't matter about penalties if they are not enforced across the board. As far as fighting well I have mixed emotions. I think If two drivers wish to get into each others faces and spit and cuss just to vent then let them. If they choose to engage in exchanging blows then well.... It depends... If they choose to do so then they get what they deserve. If they wind up hurt it's their own fault they should have known better. Na$car should keep their collective a$$es out of it should the fight take place out of the public eye(it's between consenting adults that wish to engage in a childish manor). Na$car should also get on the Networks butts for lookin for the fight. It's ridiculous.

Yes people can get hurt. It's their own fault though if they wish to spar. They made that choice. Let them live with it. Sponsors should step up to the plate and get involved. I think Home Depot fined Tony once haven't they?

Just from the other side of the fence on the fight issue. Generally it isn't two consenting adults who get into the fight. Kenseth came to Gordon to apologize. Now lets just leave the actual altercation for another discussion. Jeff just pushed him and probably would have gone further had there not been some intervention by others. In that case and in most other cases they both didn't come together to engage in a boxing/shoving/slapping match. My point is that 99.9% of the time it is an anger issue on the part of just one person.

Across the board justice ??? I am all in favor of that but as Bob so duly noted even American justice can't do that. Since I am not a single team/driver fan I again say that if agreesive driving occurs and the penalty is a 1 race suspension then it does not matter what your name is or who your sponsor is. Same would go for all violations. Whatever the penalty everyone gets it. Maybe then Kevin Lepage could win a race or maybe even Derek Cope.

With all of those brilliant thoughts I will also add that if pigs had wings they could fly.

[BringBackWilkesboro]

Fighting, whether vehicular or physical does seem to draw "fans" closer, at least the newer ones who speak proudly about watching races just for that part of it. To the fans who have been around the block, its just another example of whiney a$$, Imature kids who just have to get the last word or shot in before letting it go (if they do at all). Sure, Im one that isnt against an eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth ever now and then, but guys these days take it too far for no good reason andfor that they should be penalized.

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by LSC9901

Just from the other side of the fence on the fight issue. Generally it isn't two consenting adults who get into the fight. Kenseth came to Gordon to apologize. Now lets just leave the actual altercation for another discussion. Jeff just pushed him and probably would have gone further had there not been some intervention by others. In that case and in most other cases they both didn't come together to engage in a boxing/shoving/slapping match. My point is that 99.9% of the time it is an anger issue on the part of just one person.

Valid Point,, very valid point.

[A pirate]

My $.02. I think NASCAR has to look at these things on a case by case basis. J. Gordon spinning Kenseth out for the win is different than Mr. Give and Take wrecking Carl Edwards and Clint Bowyer because CB didn't pull over and let him pass. On the last lap it's pretty much every driver for themselves. Kenseth will have the opportunity to send Gordon into the wall or what have you when they are racing again on the last lap. If that should happen, too bad Jeff you had it coming. Thretening someone shouldn't be taken lightly and suspending a driver for a race would be just in my opinon. Using your car in a moment of rage like Carl did after Tony wrecked him should also be at least a week. On pit road it should be more than that because of all the people you are putting in danger by being stupid. We all know that if Tony or Carl or whomever gets suspended they would just put a backup driver in the car. That way the sponsor still gets the track time. Part of me thinks the whole team should be suspended but I doubt very much NASCAR will suspend the team and essentially bite the hand that feeds them.

On the other side if its two drivers duking it out after the race it should be treated again on a case by case basis. If it's clear both drivers were looking to box then just let it be. If it's one looking for a fight and the other trying to be diplomatic fine, suspend, whatever the aggressor and call it a day.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by A pirate

My $.02. I think NASCAR has to look at these things on a case by case basis. J. Gordon spinning Kenseth out for the win is different than Mr. Give and Take wrecking Carl Edwards and Clint Bowyer because CB didn't pull over and let him pass. On the last lap it's pretty much every driver for themselves. Kenseth will have the opportunity to send Gordon into the wall or what have you when they are racing again on the last lap. If that should happen, too bad Jeff you had it coming. Thretening someone shouldn't be taken lightly and suspending a driver for a race would be just in my opinon. Using your car in a moment of rage like Carl did after Tony wrecked him should also be at least a week. On pit road it should be more than that because of all the people you are putting in danger by being stupid. We all know that if Tony or Carl or whomever gets suspended they would just put a backup driver in the car. That way the sponsor still gets the track time. Part of me thinks the whole team should be suspended but I doubt very much NASCAR will suspend the team and essentially bite the hand that feeds them.

On the other side if its two drivers duking it out after the race it should be treated again on a case by case basis. If it's clear both drivers were looking to box then just let it be. If it's one looking for a fight and the other trying to be diplomatic fine, suspend, whatever the aggressor and call it a day.

Good points and very well said. My only problem with what you say is that if NASCAR takes it on a case-by-case basis (With an governing body which deals fairly and equitably, the best way to go) it gives NASCAR wide latitude to play favourites when it comes to slapping hands and meting out penalties. Personally, NASCAR doesn't have that much credibility with me.

[BringBackWilkesboro]

Originally Posted by A pirate

My $.02. I think NASCAR has to look at these things on a case by case basis.

Nascar's idea of a case by case basis is more based on who is involved these days rather than the severity of the issue. If for example David Stremme were to tell Jimmie Johnson to stick it up his f%$*ing a$$, he may be fined $20,000, while if Jimmie said the same thing to david, they would fine him $10,000 if anything. Thats just the way Na$car politics works.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by BringBackWilkesboro

Nascar's idea of a case by case basis is more based on who is involved these days rather than the severity of the issue. If for example David Stremme were to tell Jimmie Johnson to stick it up his f%$*ing a$$, he may be fined $20,000, while if Jimmie said the same thing to david, they would fine him $10,000 if anything. Thats just the way Na$car politics works.

My feeling exactly! You stated exactly what I was trying to get across, except you said it so that it was understandable.