[SteelPhoenyx]

Okay, I'm opening the proverbial 'can of worms' here, and I hope it stays civil enough. Please don't flame me too badly.

This is really a matter of curiosity... why is there such a negative reception towards Toyota joining in the Busch and Nextel series' next year?

Is it because they're 'Japanese'? They do a considerable amount of manufacturing here in the States these days... and those Chevys, Fords and Dodges aren't All American anymore. (Ford Couriers were just Mazda pickups for HOW long?). The automotive industry has become quite a melting pot these days. I'm not ashamed to say I drive a Toyota pickup (which I LOVE!), yet I have a couple pieces of true U.S. steel in my driveway and garage too. True, as in pre-1975.

Is it a historical thing? They'd be the 'upstart' cars of the series'... and nobody's ever run 'shine in a Toy.

Maybe its because I'm a relatively new fan to the sport... but I don't see that it would be a bad thing for them to enter the auto series'. They've been in the Truck series for a couple years now and it seems those Tundras do a pretty good job from the limited viewing I've had of the Truck races.

There's a couple pretty good articles I've run across on some of the development...

This one is from Yahoo! Sports and talks about the engine development for '07:
Power source - NASCAR - Yahoo! Sports
It is an interesting read if you haven't seen it already.

This one is just a quickie article on About.com:
Toyota to enter NASCAR NEXTEL Cup and NASCAR Busch Series in 2007
but still interesting just the same.

Here's another thing I've observed in my short time of seriously watching the races... Chevy... dominates. Ford... sucks (and I bet Kenseth would agree with me right about now). Dodge... hasn't had much luck lately either. Felt pretty bad for Kahne at the end of Sunday's race. Toyota's entering the fray can do one of two things... they'll either fail miserably and be the laughingstock of NASCAR, or they'll ultimately start giving Chevy a run for its money, and maybe give them some true competition. Of course Chevrolet is pretty smart in this... they're the only one of the three that according to the Yahoo! article is embracing the opportunity to redevelop their engines.

Like I said... I'm new to this sport, and I am genuinely interested in hearing what you diehards have to say about this.
Ok, I'm gonna go put on some flame retardent underwear now.

P.S. Ironically, I'd hate it if Honda or Nissan entered the fray. And I can't explain why.

[Team Yates]

I don't have a problem with Toyota joining the fun!!!!!

[Quality88]

Yota is just another form of Brian France wantin more money. Yes Yotas are manufactured in the states and most us vehicles have parts or are made in foreign countries. However... Yota was not founded in the United States. Which the rules say manufactured in the US. It wasn't meant to be that literal, but France used that to his advantage. But, who are we kiddin... he uses anything to his advantage to make $$$$.

[Nevadastars]

Originally Posted by SteelPhoenyx

Okay, I'm opening the proverbial 'can of worms' here, and I hope it stays civil enough. Please don't flame me too badly.

Don't worry Phoenyx, we cant/wont flame you. Its against the rules, and you are not the one making the NA$CAR decisions. Personally, I'm not crazy about it, but am accepting it. I just don't want them to dominate like they are pretty much doing in the truck series. On Wind Tunnel, Clint Boyer pretty much confirmed they are the horsepower king in that arena. Now, why is that? Americans have been wringing out every last bit of horsepower from pushrod V8s for the past 50 years, yet Toyota beats them at their own game in a 2 or 3 year period.

I don't buy into the "Remember Pearl Harbor" thing. Toyota did not bomb us, their leaders did, and that was over 65 years ago. I wonder how the anti-Toyota guys would feel if BMW or Volvo decided to join in the fun. With the era of cookie cutter cars, I could really care less about the label on the hood, I root more for the driver, than the brand.

[Lefty Noob]

ESPN's Outside the Lines covered this topic on Sunday, and the general feeling was that the negative feelings toward Toyota stem back to the UAW and how overseas cars have hurt the American automobile market, costing U.S. manufactures to cut jobs and so on. What do you guys think of that argument? Do you think that's really the primary reason some NASCAR fans are anti-Toyota?

[Bob Tanner]

WARNING: People who adhere to a politically correct philosphy may want to skip this reply.

A very good, and quite brave, question. Please don't worry about getting "flamed" by me; I tend to go to the more offensive, non-politically correct statements and not the personal attack-type of reply.

Speaking only for myself, seeing Toyota come into NASCAR is, to me, a matter of national pride. In my lifetime I have seen entire companies lost their manufacturing sites to sites overseas. Japan, in the early days of this movement, was the prime area to which our companies moved. I am, and probably in all likelihood, bitter and rightly or wrongly, will hold some sort of grudge against Japan until I die.

Have I alienated you yet? No? OK, I'll go on...

Secondly, there is what I percieve to be a politically correct cancer spreading spreading over our country. It's commonly known as cultural diversity. NASCAR has always been an "American" sport with only minor inroads from things outside our culture. A safe haven for people with nationalistic pride, as it were. I, personally, see NASCAR's adopting Toyota into the family as yet another example of America rolling over for this cultural diversity crap.

I bet you're kinda offended by now, eh?

Thirdly, you state that Toyota, and other foreign industries, manufactur things here and that is good. I'll give you that it's better than asking if you can Super-size something. But, the overall profit leaves our shores, returns home to be converted into yen, marks, francs, whatever. In the short term I can see where one would think that foreign industry here could be a good thing, but in the long term, it stinks. I won't bore you with geo-political dribble, but that's how I, personally, think.

Lastly, in other forms of racing, Toyota historically has come in with a WalMart, take-no-prisioners philosphy. They are predatory and consider anything other than total domination as a failure. With Ford on the rocks, Daimler/Dodge not knowing what the Hell they're going to do, and GM cutting back on racing support, Toyota, with their big bankrolls and gigantic tech support, will be akin to the Cup Raiders beating up on the BGN teams and drivers; not a lot of competition. If you want Toyota's plan, just look at the Goody's Dash Series and CTS. Enter unobtrusively and win championship within two years, at the latest. My bet is that a Bill Davis Toyota will win the Cup in 2008. Any takers?

No. when it comes to America I don't naievely go with the concept, "May the best man win." In my mind's eye, America is ALWAYS the "Best man."

Sorry, I just plain do not want to see what I consider one of the "true" American sports get taken out the way in which I've seen alot of America get clobbered.

And yes, in case you've wondered, I have a whole lot of problems with BGN running in Mexico and a little less problem with the new date in Quebec.

Yes, a lot of what I've said will sent the politically correct, America's the bad guy, crowd running from the room screaming. Well, as we say down here on the Gulf Coast, "Ain't life a real beach?"

[SteelPhoenyx]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

I bet you're kinda offended by now, eh?

Nope, not at all. If I wanted a PC, candy-coated response, I would have asked a bunch of fluffybunnies. Personally I hate the whole 'PC' thing... it's ridiculous and has gotten out of hand.

I asked the question because I wanted honest opnions, and I appreciate your honesty. So far the answers have run an interesting gamut on the receptive spectrum. (what? )

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by SteelPhoenyx

I asked the question because I wanted honest opnions, and I appreciate your honesty. So far the answers have run an interesting gamut on the receptive spectrum. (what? )

A veritable cornucopia of sentimentary expertise?

[SteelPhoenyx]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

A veritable cornucopia of sentimentary expertise?

Exactly!

[LSC9901]

Unlike big bad Bob, I try to be politically correct ... yeah ... right. As you did guess this stirs the pot of NASCAR fans. Fans like Bob, myself and several others here are the older generation fans. We were there when you didn't see any races live. They were all tape delayed and delayed sometiumes by weeks. We were the true rednecks of racing. The NASCAR fans of today are a somewhat different breed just because they grew up in a different and changing NASCAR.

In the older days we saw drivers on the track racing to win. They weren't out there to score points safely or to keep the sponsor happy. The sponsor was some dealer back in their hometown who gave them enough money to buy some gas and a couple sets of tires so they could race.

With all that said we only had the American built cars on the track. They were built in the US and they were STOCK cars, at least by NASCAR definition. Much more stock than what is raced today and even more so than the COT. The drivers were all rum runners out of the mountains from down south. Thats just the way it was.

Todays NA$CAR is all about how much money can the France family accumulate and how much money can the big corporate sponsors spend to get their name on TV each and every week. Capitalism at its finest, and that really is OK .... I guess. It's just not my NASCAR

Now with all that said I will add that Toyota coming to NASCAR isn't bad ... it just isn't American. No I'm not haunted by Pearl Harbor. Yes I drive a foreign brand car. No I'm not an ethnic racist. Toyota is not an American car and yes I know that many parts if not the total car is now not made on US soil. Ford, Chevy, Chrysler and so on will always be associated as American manufacturers. As Bob so correctly noted the profit from Toyota returns to a foreign land.

Before long I too will be history and NA$CAR will still be going along at whatever pace it can. It will no doubt feature manufacturers from all corners of the earth, along with drivers who no longer have a southern drawl. Maybe even some who cannot speak english. Then again home base for NASCAR may end up in the new democracy, and maybe state, of Iraq. Who knows. What I do know is that Toyota will never, for me, be a NASCAR automobile. Even if my favorite drivers turn to it, and Michael Waltrip is not one, I'll still not enjoy or like the fact that they are in "MY" NASCAR.

[wingkey1]

It’s not (a bad thing).

For the racing fan that is “pure” based on a desire to see humans with exceptional talent compete against others in a “managed” (Sanctioned, rule based, defined) professional environment, that is. For the “manufacturer” fans – Oh well.

Within the above “definition” there is the anticipation that there will be equipment employed that is at a level of quality, engineering, reliability, etc. equal to the skills of the competitors.

It can no longer be “anticipated” that the required equipment will be available from US firms.

The U.S. automotive industry is literally on the ropes. There is little hope that this will change in the “short term”. Very little. There are many things that play in to the ills of the industry, and some will remain for a while. These ills make it less and less possible for US firms to devote the engineering and assistance dollars to the race teams that they could/might in the past. This puts the burden more on the owners and sponsors. This has led to the “mega” teams. Lesser teams simply cannot afford to compete. Sponsor $$ are getting harder to acquire.

You start playing all of the above out and it begins to feel like the sport could suffer seriously without a manufacturer that is willing to step up to commit the engineering dollars that will be necessary to off load the burden from the teams. It’s more than a feeling, it’s more likely fact.

Bottom line, the sport needs a “Toyota”. Going to be interesting to watch just how long it takes Honda or other off shore to enter NASCAR. Don’t know that they’ll (Honda) play too long at/with IRL while Toyota gets all the press over in NASCAR.

Then again y'all got to figure in that I found myself favoring the Pontiac's. Good old Fireball and company. I had to get over the manufacturer/engine thing quite a while ago.

[Quality88]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

WARNING: People who adhere to a politically correct philosphy may want to skip this reply.

A very good, and quite brave, question. Please don't worry about getting "flamed" by me; I tend to go to the more offensive, non-politically correct statements and not the personal attack-type of reply.

Speaking only for myself, seeing Toyota come into NASCAR is, to me, a matter of national pride. In my lifetime I have seen entire companies lost their manufacturing sites to sites overseas. Japan, in the early days of this movement, was the prime area to which our companies moved. I am, and probably in all likelihood, bitter and rightly or wrongly, will hold some sort of grudge against Japan until I die.

Have I alienated you yet? No? OK, I'll go on...

Secondly, there is what I percieve to be a politically correct cancer spreading spreading over our country. It's commonly known as cultural diversity. NASCAR has always been an "American" sport with only minor inroads from things outside our culture. A safe haven for people with nationalistic pride, as it were. I, personally, see NASCAR's adopting Toyota into the family as yet another example of America rolling over for this cultural diversity crap.

I bet you're kinda offended by now, eh?

Thirdly, you state that Toyota, and other foreign industries, manufactur things here and that is good. I'll give you that it's better than asking if you can Super-size something. But, the overall profit leaves our shores, returns home to be converted into yen, marks, francs, whatever. In the short term I can see where one would think that foreign industry here could be a good thing, but in the long term, it stinks. I won't bore you with geo-political dribble, but that's how I, personally, think.

Lastly, in other forms of racing, Toyota historically has come in with a WalMart, take-no-prisioners philosphy. They are predatory and consider anything other than total domination as a failure. With Ford on the rocks, Daimler/Dodge not knowing what the Hell they're going to do, and GM cutting back on racing support, Toyota, with their big bankrolls and gigantic tech support, will be akin to the Cup Raiders beating up on the BGN teams and drivers; not a lot of competition. If you want Toyota's plan, just look at the Goody's Dash Series and CTS. Enter unobtrusively and win championship within two years, at the latest. My bet is that a Bill Davis Toyota will win the Cup in 2008. Any takers?

No. when it comes to America I don't naievely go with the concept, "May the best man win." In my mind's eye, America is ALWAYS the "Best man."

Sorry, I just plain do not want to see what I consider one of the "true" American sports get taken out the way in which I've seen alot of America get clobbered.

And yes, in case you've wondered, I have a whole lot of problems with BGN running in Mexico and a little less problem with the new date in Quebec.

Yes, a lot of what I've said will sent the politically correct, America's the bad guy, crowd running from the room screaming. Well, as we say down here on the Gulf Coast, "Ain't life a real beach?"

I'm not a candya$$ and I'm sick of all the candya$$es. Lay on the politcally incorrect Bob.

[LSC9901]

Originally Posted by wingkey1

I had to get over the manufacturer/engine thing quite a while ago.

I believe that even most of the "old timers" have gotten over the fact that there is no real Chevy, Ford or any other real car out there anymore. It's sort of like when the new fangled VCR's came out and Ma & Pa just waited 6 months til the time changed back an hour so the clock would be right. I've tried to incorporate the NA$CAR changes into my life and believe I have been relatively successful, but I'm still waiting for "STOCK CARS" to return ..... not fer them dang ferign rigs to come inta the great 'merican sport.

'nuff said !!

[Nevadastars]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

general feeling was that the negative feelings toward Toyota stem back to the UAW and how overseas cars have hurt the American automobile market, costing U.S. manufactures to cut jobs and so on. What do you guys think of that argument?

My honest to gawd feeling on that is, the US automobile manufacturers brought it on themselves. I have worked as a auto body technician for nearly 35 years and have worked on just about everything out there. When the Japanese cars came to this country, they were cute little things that got great gas mileage, but that was about it, nobody really noticed. In the 70s, 80s and early 90s, the American cars kept getting crappy mileage and were still tuna boats by comparison............not to mention the fact they were junk heaps that fell apart by 80k miles. But, the Japanese figured out how to mass produce QUALITY vehicles that would run forever, get great gas mileage and hold together over time.

Their reputation for being good solid cars is the reason they are thriving today. Like I said, as a tech that works on them, the Japanese cars are head and shoulders above the Americans in sheer build quality. If you put a fender on a Corolla or Accord, it fits......period. Put one on a Camaro, and it is a literal nightmare. Who the hell ever came up with the idea to put rubber fenders on cars or fiberglass doors that crack when you have power windows installed on them?

The UAW thing also is killing GM and Ford. Outrageous salaries are being paid to CEOs and retirements, then you have guys that drive the cleanup sweepers in the plants making $100K per year. I would love to have a no-brainer job and make that kind of money! Take those huge salaries, along with mediocre product, and you have the results that is now facing GM and Ford. People want the most out of their buying dollar, and the Japanese have proven they build the better product for the buck.

Like I said at the beginning, they have dug their own graves. Sad but true.

[LSC9901]

In 1956 my father bought his first "New" car. It was a Chevy. No less than 3 years later it was a rusted out heap with little mileage on it. Today people drive many more miles per year and want better quality for the $$ they spend. Today you can go to the used car lot and grab a Toyota or Honda with 60K on it and feel like you just got a better car than what you can buy from the Chevrolet showroom.

None of this has much to do with NASCAR. The American manufacturers are falling out of the racing picture due to financial woes and this is an opening of the door for Toyota and almost anyone else who wants in. Sadly for the fans, both new and old, money will buy the championship. I really do not believe that Toyota will win a championship right away. I think they have a learning curve to deal with. I know they are already in the CTS but the aero packages are different and getting the personel trained and teams to gel will take time. Maybe in that time frame we will somehow learn how to not dislike Toyota. More than likely by the time we decide to like them another manufacturer will join NASCAR, giving us someone new to hate.