[MJHMarc]

Do you know how much Biggio means to Houston? He has spent his career there and the fans love watching him return season after season for the past couple of decades. He is a home-town hero!

He will make the Hall, trust me.

[JackAigner]

Craig Biggio was not as good of a player as Joe Morgan, sure, but then again, Joe Morgan was probably the best second baseman of all time. George Brett was slightly better than Biggio, but you can certainly mention their names in the same sentence. Biggio was a far superior player to Kirby Puckett, as good as Puckett was at one point. His career would look better had it come to its natural end. You can't look just at flat statistics in a lot of cases, but it works with Biggio (or Morgan or Brett) because he's surrounded by Hall of Famers in a ton of important categories. Read what Bill James says about him in the Historical Baseball Abstract with regard to Biggio's little stats (small stats that add up over the course of a season and provide huge hidden advantages). He's got 2916 hits, and everyone with more is a Hall of Famer except for Ripken, Gwynn, Henderson (guys who will be) and Rose (who could have been). 636 doubles makes him 9th behind all Hall of Famers (except Rose). 1769 runs puts him behind all Hall of Famers (except Bonds, Henderson, and Rose). He's passed countless Hall of Famers in those categories, as well. Comparing him to the other Hall of Fame 2nd basemen, any argument against him fails miserably. Among them, he's 5th in hits, 3rd in runs (he'll pass Gehringer with 6 more), 2nd in doubles, (he'll probably pass Lajoie), 2nd in total bases, obviously first in HBP, 4th in BB, 5th in SB (at about a 70% rate), 3rd in HR (5 to pass Sandberg). There's just no doubt about this guy. In his prime, he was a great player. He's the only player in history with 2800 hits, 250 home runs, 600 doubles, and 400 stolen bases. He's the 4th or 5th best 2nd baseman off all time. He deserves to be a first-ballot lock.

[ThePundit]

Originally Posted by JackAigner

Craig Biggio was not as good of a player as Joe Morgan, sure, but then again, Joe Morgan was probably the best second baseman of all time. George Brett was slightly better than Biggio, but you can certainly mention their names in the same sentence. Biggio was a far superior player to Kirby Puckett, as good as Puckett was at one point.

Welcome to GoTeamsGo Jack. I look forward to talking baseball with you. I must disagree with a couple of your assertions.

1. George Brett was MUCH better than Biggio. Brett was the best all around hitter I've ever seen. And he came up huge in the big game.

2. I have to say Puckett is better than Biggio also. Puckett's numbers are very deceiving. Puckett was the face of the Twins for years and he also played huge in a big game. He pretty much willed the Twins to victory in '91 over the Braves.

3. Here are Biggio's post season #'s: 40 games, .234 avg, 2 HR's, 11 RBI, 2 SB, 23 RUNS scored, 30 strike outs: Not good at all.

George Brett had 3 homers in 1 game against the Yankees at Yankee Stadium.

[JackAigner]

The greatness of a player's career cannot be denied because of postseason stats. It's another quarter-mile in the ten mile trip to the Hall. Biggio's, along with Bagwell's great play, got those late 90s Astros teams to the playoffs in the first place. Don't agree? Here are some stats to put that into perspective.

Willie Mays: .247, 1 HR, 6 extra-base hits, 10 RBIs in 6 series.
Tony Perez: .238, .291, 37 Ks, did have 6 HRs and 25 RBIs.
Orlando Cepeda: .207, .242, 3 HRs, 12 RBIs, 3 BB, 13 Ks, 8 extra-base hits
Mike Schmidt: .236, .304, 4 HRs, 15 BB, 27 Ks, 19 R

My guess is that if you give any of these guys another helping of post-season at bats, their numbers are going up. It also doesn't seem like it came close to keeping them out of the Hall, though none were borderline candidates (Biggio's career surpasses that of Cepeda and Perez, certainly. If you check what these guys did in the regular season, they were a pretty big part of the reason their teams ever got to the postseason. The whole "clutch" argument just doesn't hold water. Some guys may be slightly better at dealing with the pressure, but I'd guess mainly they're just lucky in a way other guys (who were just as good) weren't.

I'm certainly not knocking Brett. He was one of the greats. I'd play him at third over anyone in recent memory (except Schmidt). He actually compares well to Biggio, especially because their careers were about the same length (Brett has the slight advantage in games and ABs). His batting average is higher, but Biggio is about the same in OBP (even though you could pitch around Brett at many points in his career...nobody's going to walk the leadoff man). Biggio stole more bases at a better rate. Biggio scored more runs with less power, but, then again, has had Bagwell, Berkman, and Kent behind him. Biggio struck out more but also walked a little more. Brett had more great seasons, but, excepting the magical 1980 year, none were strikingly superior to Biggio's best years. Brett drove in more, but he hit in the middle of the order, so that's no wonder. He hit more home runs (only about 40 more), but Biggio will have as many 20 plus homer years if he hits 2 more this year. Their about even in the undervalued doubles category, with Brett getting a slight advantage. Brett was a good third baseman in his prime. Biggio was a good second baseman in his prime. They both played (hopefully) their entire careers with one club. They were both good leaders who played the game the right way. Both made up for what they lacked in talent with sheer drive and determination. I'd give the nod to Brett, sure, but not by that much. The fact that Brett performed well in the "clutch" is of little consequence to anyone but those living in KC in 1985. He had some bad postseason series just like Biggio had some good ones.

[JackAigner]

In any event, this is a great discussion and a favorite topic of mine, as I've grown up a fan of Biggio. Thanks for good debate.

[stepay]

I found this message board by doing a Google search for "Craig Biggio" just because I wanted to see what others thought. I'm amazed by two things I've read here:

1) That someone would say Biggio is NOT a Hall of Famer.

2) That someone would say Derek Jeter is on a Hall of Fame path despite not putting up Hall of Fame numbers.

I'll take #2 regarding Jeter first -- WHAT!?! This guy is ABSOLUTELY putting up Hall of Fame numbers. He has a .316 career batting average, is on his way to his 5th season with 200 or more hits, and he could be the MVP this year. Jeter has an outside shot of getting 4,000 hits! Not just 3,000, but 4,000!! He'll likely fall short of 4,000, but he will be WAY over 3,000 hits. I hate the Yankees, but Derek Jeter is one of the best players ever, at any position (though his fielding is overrated). He's only 32 he has 2,131 hits now with some of the season left to play. Let's assume he has just 8 more seasons and averages 170 hits (VERY doable for him) -- that's right on 3,500 hits. He throws several more 200 hit seasons in there and plays until he's 43 as some are doing now, then 4,000 could fall. We don't know how he'll age. I've heard people before say he doesn't put up Hall of Fame numbers but will get in on the strength of his leadership and post season play. I just don't get it. This guy would be earmarked for the Hall of Fame if his entire career were playing the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. Many many great hitters that did not get 3,000 hits, and Jeter will destroy that number.

Regarding Biggio, assuming he plays one more season and stays injury free, he will get 3,000 hits (needs just 84 more). That's the most automatic Hall of Fame stat there is. 500 homeruns used to do it too, but the bloom is off that rose. With all the things he's done that were mentioned by others here, he's in -- first ballot too. Is he the greatest player ever to get into the Hall of Fame? No. Is he at least as good as Robin Yount and Tony Perez and Gary Carter? Yep. I'm a Reds fan, and I say he's better than all of them were, Tony Perez included. is he good enough to be considered great? Yep.

[rmjvol]

Hi stepay, welcome to GoTeamsGo. Glad you found us.

As Jack mentioned, we're all about being a place where sports fans can have a good debate without the fear of personal attacks that happen at so many other sports forums.

Hope to hear more from both stepay & Jack about Biggio and on many other topics.

Thanks, Ross

[legend]

I am in agreement with alot that has been said here except I will say that Joe Morgan was not the greatest second baseman of all time. His career average of .271 is higher than only three of the other second basemaen in the Hall of Fame. Unfortunately for Joe and every other player who plays second base, that was Rogers Hornsby's position.

[JackAigner]

You can certainly make a great case for Hornsby, that's true. His era was so different, it's hard to grasp exactly how far his stats reach. I picked Morgan here basically for the sake of argument: He's easier to compare to Biggio. I guess that's another debate for another post, though.

[ThePundit]

Originally Posted by stepay

I found this message board by doing a Google search for "Craig Biggio" just because I wanted to see what others thought. I'm amazed by two things I've read here:

1) That someone would say Biggio is NOT a Hall of Famer.

2) That someone would say Derek Jeter is on a Hall of Fame path despite not putting up Hall of Fame numbers.

I'll take #2 regarding Jeter first -- WHAT!?! This guy is ABSOLUTELY putting up Hall of Fame numbers. He has a .316 career batting average, is on his way to his 5th season with 200 or more hits, and he could be the MVP this year. Jeter has an outside shot of getting 4,000 hits! Not just 3,000, but 4,000!! He'll likely fall short of 4,000, but he will be WAY over 3,000 hits. I hate the Yankees, but Derek Jeter is one of the best players ever, at any position (though his fielding is overrated). He's only 32 he has 2,131 hits now with some of the season left to play. Let's assume he has just 8 more seasons and averages 170 hits (VERY doable for him) -- that's right on 3,500 hits. He throws several more 200 hit seasons in there and plays until he's 43 as some are doing now, then 4,000 could fall. We don't know how he'll age. I've heard people before say he doesn't put up Hall of Fame numbers but will get in on the strength of his leadership and post season play. I just don't get it. This guy would be earmarked for the Hall of Fame if his entire career were playing the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. Many many great hitters that did not get 3,000 hits, and Jeter will destroy that number.

Regarding Biggio, assuming he plays one more season and stays injury free, he will get 3,000 hits (needs just 84 more). That's the most automatic Hall of Fame stat there is. 500 homeruns used to do it too, but the bloom is off that rose. With all the things he's done that were mentioned by others here, he's in -- first ballot too. Is he the greatest player ever to get into the Hall of Fame? No. Is he at least as good as Robin Yount and Tony Perez and Gary Carter? Yep. I'm a Reds fan, and I say he's better than all of them were, Tony Perez included. is he good enough to be considered great? Yep.

Welcome to GoTeamsGo stepay. I just never considered Biggio a great player. Let's look at it this way: Is Craig Biggio in the same class as gus like:

Joe Morgan
Mickey Mantle
Hank Aaron
Reggie Jackson
George Brett
Carlton Fisk

My point is in my opinion, the HOF should be a place for the GREAT player, not the very, very good player.

[JackAigner]

Wow. Carlton Fisk. I'd consider him a great, though such a statement might need to be qualified by calling him great for a catcher, since he didn't play as many games or have as many at bats every season as position players. Fisk is certainly deserving of the Hall, but Biggio was way, way better. If Biggio was one of the very good, Fisk was pretty good. Fisk's best seasons were way below Biggio's best, even though he hit for more power, at least during his best years. There were years in the middle of his career, what should have been his prime, where his performance wasn't so good. In total, Biggio beats Fisk in runs, hits, doubles, triples, walks, steals and steal percentage, batting average, OBP, and only trails in slugging by 20 points. Fisk was a very good catcher. Biggio was a very good second baseman. It's a shame he never waved a home run fair.

Biggio has Reggie Jackson beat in hits, runs, doubles, triples, stolen bases (nearly twice as many, though they were caught about the same number), batting average, on-base percentage, was a far superior defender, was faster, could bunt, a better teammate, played harder, and wasn't a self-absorbed narcissist. Jackson never had 160 hits in a year, Biggio has done that 11 times. Jackson hit .300 once (right on the nose). Biggio did that 4 times. Jackson never hit 40 doubles in a year, Biggio has done that 7 times. Jackson never stole 30 bases, Biggio has done that 5 timtes. Even with all his walks, Jackson could only beat .400 OBP once. Biggio did it 4 times, and nobody was pitching around him (to put him on for Bagwell). Even so, Jackson is Hall material, without question. Biggio was better.

Biggio was not quite as good as Brett, but I have already shown that his numbers were nearly as good.

Biggio was not as good as Morgan, but certainly belongs in the second-base conversation. Morgan is between number 1 and 3 at the position and Biggio is 4 or 5. Only Morgan, Collins, and Hornsby had distinctively better careers. Lajoie, Sandberg, and perhaps Robinson follow Biggio most closely.

Biggio is greatness in the same class as these guys.

The other two are of the very, very top tier of the Hall. If players of that quality are the only ones good enough for the Hall, they could fit the place in my two-car garage.

[ThePundit]

Jack: I think part of our disagreement is the way we both look at the HOF. You're more into the stats part and I'm more into the gut feel. I simply look at this - do I consider the player as a great player. I just never considered Biggio as great. But this is what's great about baseball - you can argue about this stuff all the time and it never gets boring.

[MJHMarc]

Originally Posted by ThePundit

never gets boring

It can get boring if you have a Mets friend like I do who speaks about Delgado and Wagner sliding in the Hall of Fame all the time. I just nod my head and agree to whatever he says in hopes that he would discontinue the conversation.

[JackAigner]

Pundit: That's probably true. I still gotta say, in my gut, the guy's one of the greats. Bagwell's been the soul, but Biggio's been the heart of some great teams.

Whatever the case, you're exactly right. This stuff never gets old. It's a great game.

[JackAigner]

I hope everyone realizes now just how great this guy was...one of the best ever. If you still don't agree, read what Rob Neyer and Jayson Stark wrote about him tonight.