[Racer Duck]

So what is all this fuss over the new KERS technology? What is it? How does it work? How is it likely to affect the future of F1 racing?

Motorsport.com: Magazine channel

[DOF_power]

Nice but it's too little and too late, the LPM1 Peugeot 908 HY hybrid-diesel is more advanced (the best thing ACO and IMSA did was to keep away from the FIA).
McLaren had a KERS system at the beginning of this decade and Williams had an eCVT tested in 93, both banned by Max "Green" Mosley, who also vetoed a proposal to return to small efficient turbos in the late 90s.

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by DOF_power

Nice but it's too little and too late, the LPM1 Peugeot 908 HY hybrid-diesel is more advanced (the best thing ACO and IMSA did was to keep away from the FIA).
McLaren had a KERS system at the beginning of this decade and Williams had an eCVT tested in 93, both banned by Max "Green" Mosley, who also vetoed a proposal to return to small efficient turbos in the late 90s.

It all depends on whose money you're taking...er.. saving.

[DOF_power]

The Green-ification of Max Mosley has to do more then anything with the European Union putting (quite a lot of) pressure on the FIA to change this irrelevant waste to something more in touch with these green-er times.

Mosley want to use the his new found green-ess as the new "safety card" witch means to give himself a carte blanche to do whatever he pleases.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by DOF_power

Nice but it's too little and too late, the LPM1 Peugeot 908 HY hybrid-diesel is more advanced (the best thing ACO and IMSA did was to keep away from the FIA).
McLaren had a KERS system at the beginning of this decade and Williams had an eCVT tested in 93, both banned by Max "Green" Mosley, who also vetoed a proposal to return to small efficient turbos in the late 90s.

I don't see how this KERS technology really makes F1 any "Greener." The harder you drive into a turn and the harder you brake (in effect wasting energy) the more kenetic engery you build up for later use.

Please excuse this really dumb question but...

It seems to me, as a techno-idiot, that a simple turbo, giving the driver the latitude to increase the boost when desired would be a more reliable and effective way to achieve the same result?

Or, am I just over-simplifying the subject?

[Racer Duck]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

I don't see how this KERS technology really makes F1 any "Greener." The harder you drive into a turn and the harder you brake (in effect wasting energy) the more kenetic engery you build up for later use.

Please excuse this really dumb question but...

It seems to me, as a techno-idiot, that a simple turbo, giving the driver the latitude to increase the boost when desired would be a more reliable and effective way to achieve the same result?

Or, am I just over-simplifying the subject?

yes, you are.

you left out the tree hugger factor.

you see, the whole premise of the thing is there is lots of lost energy in a race. reclaiming that energy gains you tree hugger points. even if you turn around and use that energy to further power your race.

the primary thing to remember is it's not what you do, it's that you do something!

...and that you "care"...

.

[DOF_power]

Originally Posted by Bob Tanner

I don't see how this KERS technology really makes F1 any "Greener." The harder you drive into a turn and the harder you brake (in effect wasting energy) the more kenetic engery you build up for later use.

Please excuse this really dumb question but...

It seems to me, as a techno-idiot, that a simple turbo, giving the driver the latitude to increase the boost when desired would be a more reliable and effective way to achieve the same result?

Or, am I just over-simplifying the subject?

The KERS to be used by F1 in its early phases isn't gonna make things greener by itself, just help convert waste into a little more passing.

And turbos till 2011/2013 are still banned.

A clear picture what the system will end up like is the Peugeot 908HY hybrid turbo-diesel, witch uses all the 4 wheels (unlike initial F1 KERS witch will use 2). It works like this :

The 908 HY can be powered in one of three ways: „« electric mode only (e.g. in the pit-lane), „« internal combustion engine only, „« a combination of the two.

In the course of a lap of Le Mans, for example, the system will recuperate energy for between 20 and 30 seconds. This energy can be used:

1) Either to deliver extra power thanks to an additional boost of 60kW (80hp) for approximately 20 seconds per lap, either automatically when re-accelerating, or when the driver chooses to make use of it ('push to pass').

2) Or to reduce fuel consumption for the equivalent level of performance thanks to the mechanical energy recovered (between three and five per cent).

There are other things planned/proposed, such as a dramatic 50% reduction in drag.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by DOF_power

The KERS to be used by F1 in its early phases isn't gonna make things greener by itself, just help convert waste into a little more passing.

And turbos till 2011/2013 are still banned.

A clear picture what the system will end up like is the Peugeot 908HY hybrid turbo-diesel, witch uses all the 4 wheels (unlike initial F1 KERS witch will use 2). It works like this :
The 908 HY can be powered in one of three ways: „« electric mode only (e.g. in the pit-lane), „« internal combustion engine only, „« a combination of the two.

In the course of a lap of Le Mans, for example, the system will recuperate energy for between 20 and 30 seconds. This energy can be used:

1) Either to deliver extra power thanks to an additional boost of 60kW (80hp) for approximately 20 seconds per lap, either automatically when re-accelerating, or when the driver chooses to make use of it ('push to pass').

2) Or to reduce fuel consumption for the equivalent level of performance thanks to the mechanical energy recovered (between three and five per cent).


There are other things planned/proposed, such as a dramatic 50% reduction in drag.

So, what we're talking about is an "On-call JATO (Jet Assisted Take Off)" function, such as the old Navy P-2V planes used in the late 50's and 60's?

Sorry. Speaking only for myself it just sounds like something else to further complicate something which has already become so complicated that it defies description. Plus, it's just another thing on the car to malfunction.

Again, sorry. "Green" theory ranks right along side cultural diversity and global warming in my hierarchy of things to be concerned about, which is only slightly above my concern about the sexual habits of aardvarks.

[DOF_power]

My concern with the system is that until it fully functional/reached last phase, it will be just PR nonsense.
There's no need IMO for a stepped introduction, I say go for everything at once.

As to the cars, they're really not that sophisticated, not compared to the 92 and 93 Elf Williams Renaults, witch to this day remain and will continue to be the most advanced racecars ever made.

Take a look:

YouTube - Secrets of F1 - Preview 01

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by DOF_power

My concern with the system is that until it fully functional/reached last phase, it will be just PR nonsense.
There's no need IMO for a stepped introduction, I say go for everything at once.

As to the cars, they're really not that sophisticated, not compared to the 92 and 93 Elf Williams Renaults, witch to this day remain and will continue to be the most advanced racecars ever made.

Take a look:

YouTube - Secrets of F1 - Preview 01

So, except for my ongoing obsession with the need for front-engined cars, you and I are once more pretty much in the same corner on a subject, no?

I wasn't aware that the Elf Renaults were more technical and sophisticated than the current car? Thanks. I never fail to learn something in these GTG forums.

[DOF_power]

The 93 cars where the most advanced ever, m6ore diverse and the last cars to be able to follow each other closely (on dry sunny weather).

I've just had a chat recently with someone after he saw some old races. He said he saw the 1993 Monaco race and was surprised that cars where actually overtaking (this on a dry sunny weather). Also he mention the cars had diverse powertrains, V8s, V10s, V12s looked slicker and was wondering WTH just happened, how did things ended up like they are today.

Well FIA banned those cars-electronics-engines-tires saying that costs will go down, the field will be leveled, the quality of racing improved and the drivers will be more important.

Kovalainen said after Singapore that he was 3 sec. per lap faster then Button, but couldn't pass no matter what he did; Räikkönen went for it and crashed.
The Overtaking Group found out that every decission FIA took since the early 1980s to "improve the qulity of racing" had the exact opposite effect.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by DOF_power

The Overtaking Group found out that every decission FIA took since the early 1980s to "improve the qulity of racing" had the exact opposite effect.

Are you absolutely positive that Max Mosley is not in the employ of our Imperial Federal Government, here in the US? After all, their current manta is, "We have never seen a problem we couldn't make worse!" and "The ONLY way to fix things is to throw money at it."

Sounds like your description of the current state of F1, to me.

[DOF_power]

Balestre started the mess in the 1980s, Mosley inherited the power structures and went to make things worse.
Grand Prix racing should have never ended under the control of the FIA, it didn't begun that way, and it was never intended to end up that way.

[Bob Tanner]

Originally Posted by DOF_power

Balestre started the mess in the 1980s, Mosley inherited the power structures and went to make things worse.
Grand Prix racing should have never ended under the control of the FIA, it didn't begun that way, and it was never intended to end up that way.

My friend, I am intrigued as to the concepts of how F1 was formed, and how it has been dabbled with by people who are concerned with their own personal agenda and thus has been turned into something it was never meant to be... Well it's ironic how that parallels what has happened to the government here in the USA at the hands of politicians with self-serving agendas.

Our "leaders" have had 221 years to get us to where we are today. Imagine what F1 might look like after egomaniacal amateurs have messed with it for 221 years?

[DOF_power]

When F1 was "conceived" in the late 40s (1947/48 ) it was just an official name for what was known as Grand Prix racing. A World championship for drivers was added in 1950 and a constructors championship in 1958.
The F1 moniker hasn't really become popular until the 1980s, as people/drivers/fans still called it Grand Prix racing (this moniker is still used today).

Why until the 1980s, because of this:

... the 1980 Rio meeting had in fact declared the death of Grand Prix racing as a World Championship sport and replaced it with ‘F1 racing’. It said so in the 1981 FIA Yellow Book:

GENERAL REGULATIONS
1 -- In application of the decisions taken during the FIA Rio Congress of 15th April 1980, the FISA is organising the new FIA Formula 1 World Championship from 1st January 1981. As a result, the old World Championship for Drivers is suppressed.

2 -- The new Formula 1 World Championship, which is the property of the FIA, will have 2 World Championship titles, one for Drivers and one for Constructors.

These significant lines had been Balestre’s key weapon all through 1980, as he tried to oust the FOCA from its control of Grand Prix racing, the old-school concept in which Grands Prix were the starting point, each of them negotiating invididually with their entrants, with the World Championship the mere afterthought of combining a number of prestigious races which happened to be eligible to FIA regulations which didn’t even need to be F1. The old World Championship which would be ‘suppressed’ was in fact nothing else but a collection of self-governed races appointed by the FIA to hold World Championship status, which allowed anyone else to stage an F1 race which wasn’t included in the championship.

Now though, the 1981 championship would fully be a FIA affair, as Grand Prix racing became synonymous with the FIA F1 World Championship. All teams would have to take part in all events on the championship calendar, and the FIA would determine the rules – with each Grand Prix’s supplementary rulebook replaced by a standardised set of rules – and it would set the entry and prize monies too. ‘Non-championship’ races were to become a thing of the past as the FIA F1 World Championship events would be the only races allowed to run according to F1 regulations.
...

From 1906 till 1980 it was Grand Prix racing, from 1981 the FIA Formula 1 World Championship.