[zelmore69]

i really think that san antonio will get it because theyve already got a stadium (the alamodome) which is in great condition and a lot of rich F#(kers down here that want a football team in S.A. and a great fan base look at the spurs as an example but i think it will come down to L.A. & S.A.

[Artisan219]

I'm working on a logo project and I figured I'd incorporate it for NFL expansion. The project is more or less based on logo design and color scheme, among other market based art, but I looked really hard at the teams I wanted to do.

Here's what I considered:

A. How would new teams work in the NFL?
There are 2 conferences and 4 divisions, so my first thought was to
work up 8 teams. This would work either to add a 5th team to each division, or to create a Central division in each conference.

B. Which states already have an NFL team and which don't?
There are a lot of states with teams, a handful with more than one, and
California, New York, and Florida have 3 teams. As much as a team in some
states may be appealing to those that live there, population and money play the biggest roles in this. So states like Montana aren't as likely to get a new team as say Virginia.

C. So then which cities actually get a team?
1. Portland Trolls (maybe Thorns) - Portland has a metropolitan population comparable to Pittsburgh's, making it a good area for a team. The probably-immediate rivalry with the Seahawks would spark interest too. I went with Trolls for the Bigfoot interest in Oregon. (Thorns because Portland is The City of Roses.)

2. San Antonio Outlaws - The metro area population is admittedly very similar to Orlando, but Florida already has 3 teams. As far as I can tell, San Antonio has been waiting for a team for quite some time. I chose Outlaws as a turnaround for the Coyboys.

3. Las Vegas Jokers - I was initially hesitant to give an NFL team to Vegas simply because I thought it might influence the betting odds and because of the boxing scene, but the city is large enough. I just thought the Batman villain was too tempting.

4. Chesapeake Crushers - Virginia Beach and Norfolk form a metro area right behind Charlotte, NC. I opted for Chesapeake because I didn't think Virginia Beach actually has enough undeveloped real estate. The name Crushers refers to the crab industry in the Bay.

5. Louisville Stallions - Louisville, the largest city in Kentucky, is about equal distance for the Colts, the Bengals, and the Titans, making some interesting team loyalties for the outlying areas. Although other teams use horse mascots, nothing is more key to Louisville than the Kentucky Derby.

6. Oklahoma Cyclones - Oklahoma City is a large metro, and although not far from Dallas, it is one of the larger cities in the Great Plains. With the Chiefs actually in Missouri, there isn't a team outside Texas before the Broncos. Cyclones were obvious, I think.

7. Birmingham Hammers - Outside Florida, the Deep South has only the Saints and the Falcons. Birmingham has kind of a bad track record for pro football, but they were an XFL team franchise. The team name derives from the Yellowhammer state bird, and the Birmingham steel industry.

8. Salt Lake Turbos - Salt Lake is as close to the American Badlands as population allows, and unfortunately, maybe as close as Montana and Idaho will get to an NFL franchise. All the same, Salt Lake is due. I chose Turbos because the salt flats have been host to many land-speed record tests.

I'll post my logos when I'm done, but feel free to comment and since I'm doing the logos anyway, I'll take requests.

[Artisan219]

My biggest fear with expansion is that it will obviously interrupt the evenness. 16 AFC, 16 NFC, split evenly in 4 divisions...the only smooth way to expand is to add 8 teams, and I'm not sure they'd do that. But since I'm working a logo design project anyway, I went down the list of metro areas.

Table of United States Metropolitan Statistical Areas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1. Portland Trolls - Portland has a metropolitan population comparable to Pittsburgh's, making it a good area for a team, and at #23 on the metro list, it's really the first major city without a team outside California. The probably-immediate rivalry with the Seahawks would spark interest too. I went with Trolls for the Bigfoot interest in Oregon.

2. San Antonio Outlaws - The metro area population is admittedly very similar to Orlando, but Florida already has 3 teams, and I agree that the Jaguars would move before they got a 4th. As far as I can tell, San Antonio has been waiting for a team for quite some time with less and less reason to say no. I chose Outlaws as a turnaround for the Coyboys.

3. Las Vegas Jokers - I was initially hesitant to give an NFL team to Vegas simply because I thought it might influence the betting odds and because of the boxing scene, but the city is large enough. Granted the NFL may still pass, but the permanent residents of Nevada still want a team. I just thought the Batman villain was too tempting.

4. Chesapeake Crushers - Virginia Beach and Norfolk form a metro area right behind Charlotte, NC. I opted for Chesapeake because I didn't think Virginia Beach actually has enough undeveloped real estate and by moving the team a little bit from the waterfront is then closer to Richmond, at only a 2 hr drive. The name Crushers refers to the crab industry in the Bay.

5. Louisville Stallions - Louisville, the largest city in Kentucky, is about equal distance for the Colts, the Bengals, and the Titans, making some interesting team loyalties for the outlying areas. I'm not sure how the market would favor Kentucky, but Louiville is larger than Buffalo or New Orleans. Although other teams use horse mascots, nothing is more key to Louisville than the Kentucky Derby.

6. Oklahoma Cyclones - Oklahoma City is a large metro, and although not far from Dallas, it is one of the larger cities in the Great Plains. With the Chiefs actually in Missouri, there isn't a team outside Texas before the Broncos. As much as I think a team in Omaha is deserving, the city is still only 800,000, so I had to go with OKC. Cyclones were obvious, I think.

7. Birmingham Hammers - Outside Florida, the Deep South has only the Saints and the Falcons. Birmingham has kind of a bad track record for pro football, but they were an XFL team franchise, though I don't know the stadium figures. The team name derives from the Yellowhammer state bird, and the Birmingham steel industry.

8. Salt Lake Turbos - Salt Lake is as close to the American Badlands as population allows, and unfortunately, maybe as close as Montana and Idaho will get to an NFL franchise. All the same, Salt Lake is due, but is admittedly the last metro over a million people on the list. I chose Turbos because the salt flats have been host to many land-speed record tests.

I'll post my logos when I'm done, but since I'm doing the logos anyway, I'll take requests. And feel free to suggest color schemes.

[Quack Attack]

Originally Posted by Artisan219

My biggest fear with expansion is that it will obviously interrupt the evenness. 16 AFC, 16 NFC, split evenly in 4 divisions...the only smooth way to expand is to add 8 teams, and I'm not sure they'd do that. But since I'm working a logo design project anyway, I went down the list of metro areas.

Ok, I really like the selection of cities you chose in your comment. They are logical, most of them are possible and would be some great additions to the NFL. However, you are leaving out the one city the NFL wants so so badly out of your list: Los Angeles. LA is one of the largest TV markets in America without an NFL franchise currently and the NFL is not only angry about this but also embarassed.

I really like your list but take my word for it, there will be no expansion whatsoever without the city Los Angeles involved. One other problem, I think you are in fantasy land thinking that the NFL is going to do the largest expansion in history with adding 8 additional teams. This will never happen.

Lastly, I have to ask where you came up with the nicknames you chose for your fantasy expansion list. I was born and raised near Portland, OR and find the nickname Trolls offensive if I may be frank here. Hey, thanks for the post and do like your city list.

Oregon colleges on any given Saturday average over 120,000 in attendance when Oregon Ducks and Oregon St Beavers play home games on the same Saturday. I know Portland can support an NFL franchise, only problem is like so many other eligible cities, nobody wants to build an NFL stadium. This has been the problem with Portland for many many years. Taxpayers don't want the bill and wealthy football fans don't want to build a stadium with all their own bucks.

[kkfan91]

Trolls? That to me sounds nothing like Bigfoot instead Portland Mystery

[Artisan219]

Originally Posted by Quack Attack

Ok, I really like the selection of cities you chose in your comment. They are logical, most of them are possible and would be some great additions to the NFL. However, you are leaving out the one city the NFL wants so so badly out of your list: Los Angeles. LA is one of the largest TV markets in America without an NFL franchise currently and the NFL is not only angry about this but also embarassed.

I really like your list but take my word for it, there will be no expansion whatsoever without the city Los Angeles involved. One other problem, I think you are in fantasy land thinking that the NFL is going to do the largest expansion in history with adding 8 additional teams. This will never happen.

Lastly, I have to ask where you came up with the nicknames you chose for your fantasy expansion list. I was born and raised near Portland, OR and find the nickname Trolls offensive if I may be frank here. Hey, thanks for the post and do like your city list.

Oregon colleges on any given Saturday average over 120,000 in attendance when Oregon Ducks and Oregon St Beavers play home games on the same Saturday. I know Portland can support an NFL franchise, only problem is like so many other eligible cities, nobody wants to build an NFL stadium. This has been the problem with Portland for many many years. Taxpayers don't want the bill and wealthy football fans don't want to build a stadium with all their own bucks.

I am aware that LA wants a team and that the market is large enough in LA to get a team. I know LA should have a team, and in all likelihood will get one, but I left LA off the list for several reasons. First, the precursor to expansion is relocation. There have been rumors that the Chargers would relocate to LA due to lease issues in San Diego. Post-Katrina New Orleans has caused talk about moving the team. Personally, I'd move the Raiders back because the Oakland market has had a decidedly negative impact on the San Fransisco '49ers. Secondly, LA has screwed up their NFL franchises twice already and California already has three teams. Plus, I didn't think it fair to give any state 4 teams. It was for similar reasons that Orlando didn't make my list even though the city is equal to San Antonio. Orlando is more likely to get the Jaguars from Jacksonville and Florida has 3 teams already. And the third reason LA didn't make it, I hate to say, is that LA goes without saying. Los Angeles is the unspoken city for expansion and for this project, I wanted to look at which cities could support teams other than LA.

As for the 8 teams, yes, I am aware that it won't happen all at one, and I'm not living in any kind of fantasy land. This will never happen for 2 main reasons. First of all, because of the 2 conferences by 4 divisions, adding teams by pairs will still leave the league unbalanced, and, like you said, because NFL eligible cities don't want to build stadiums. Since the league is already balanced quite evenly, expansion is a very hard sell to the NFL. 34 teams will skew the divisions and effect playoffs. And it is very expensive the first few years for a city to host an NFL team. Stadiums, coaching staffs, and of course, the rosters. The NFL does not want to open the door to expansion. For me, first and foremost, this is an art project. I added 8 simply for the purposes of logo design, not out of any belief that they'd add that many. At least not all at once. Consider it the inevitability of expansions. I believe these 8 cities will all have teams eventually, the point of my list was which cities can support an NFL franchise. After those 8 cities, plus Los Angeles and Orlando, there won't be any cities to call eligible. Salt Lake City is really one of the last million-plus cities, and for this reason, I don't think the NFL will ever surpass 40 teams. It may be another 20 years or more, but assuming all these cities stay in the top 50 metros, I think eventually all of these cities will get teams.

And as for the Trolls, I don't mean any offense to Portland. I just went with a Bigfoot-in-Oregon mascot and Portland Sasquatch or Portland Bigfeet didn't have the aesthetic literary appeal of the Trolls or Ogres. My alternate was the Portland Thorns, but I wasn't sure the City of Roses needed the banner. I'm open to any suggestions. To be honest, Trolls would fit better in Fargo, but the Dakotas are just too sparsely populated.

[Quack Attack]

Thanks for your lengthy response Artisan. Great topic and personally would like to see the NFL expand in the next few years. I sure would love to see a team in my home city of Portland but taxpayers have turned down ever proposal for a stadium in the last 30 years. Phil Knight (Nike) has never showed interest in building a stadium which I know he has the bucks if he wanted to. Portland had a team back in the USFL days called the Portland Storm.

The Portland Trolls? I just was trying to figure out where you came up with this and thanks for telling me. Didn't know how it related to Bigfoot.

I think the cities you chose could easily support an NFL team. Its a shame that it now costs 300 million to build a stadium this day and age which usually means tax payer help.

Good points about Los Angeles. Yes, California already has 3 teams and let some other city have a shot at one. I just know the NFL has stated over and over they want an LA team. Good points and great topic!

[Artisan219]

Well let's consider that. Oregon has a population of 3.7M and the Portland Metro has a population of 2.2M. Brass tacks, that's roughly $100 per resident of Oregon, assuming no corporate backing whatsoever. That'd be doable if everyone in the state wanted a stadium, but that's obviously not the case.

But say 1 of every 5 people want a stadium, that's $500 per person, which is pricey, but not unmanageable, and I'm still assuming no corporate backing. Add into that that if the NFL announced expansion plans today, I would imagine they'd have a 5-year plan. Raising $300 - $600M in 5 years comes down to to raising between $600K to $1.2M every year. This may seem complicated, but what I'm getting at, is that if enough individual residents of Greater Portland want a stadium, it wouldn't be impossible for the city to generate the funds on its own over a span of five years.

That holds true for most cities. And once an individual city signs on that it wants a team, a large corporation should look to invest in the area. Heinz, the ketchup brand, paid $57 just to put their name on the Steeler's new field. I know I'm assuming your $300M as a solid figure, but my point is simply that it actually doesn't come down to just money. Money gets it done, but it actually comes down to just plain old-fashioned public interest. The Steelers are one of the largest NFL franchises, supported by a city only 150,000 people larger than Portland.

As an aside, they're supposedly bring back the USFL. But I thought Portland had the Breakers.

Originally Posted by bresilhac

Interesting post. If Orlando is a bigger television than San Antonio it isn't by much. The two cities are virtually the same size.

A simple google search would have eliminated the need for erroneous speculation. For 2009, Orlando was ranked as the 19th largest nielsen tv market with 1,466,420 tv homes. San Antonio was ranked as the 37th largest nielsen tv market with 818,560 tv homes. So yeah, I'd say it is by much.

See for yourself: http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/...-dma-ranks.pdf

I think the following 8 cities should get the Expansion.

San Antonio, Texas
Omaha, Nebraska
Richmond Virginia
Salt Lake City, Utah
Louisville, Kentucky
Las Vegas Nevada
Toronto, Canada
Vancouver, Canada