[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

I don't mind him running; however, you cannot pin every sack on the offensive line. He refuses to throw the ball away and would rather hold onto it for a sack. When a tackle is expecting you to be in the pocket and you free lance into an undesigned rollout, you cannot fault the tackle, that is football 101.

His completion percentage has always been very misleading. So many of his passes come from little dump offs. I think he is a plus 60% passer, but nowhere near 70% when he isn't so gunshy.

Watching him, you can tell that his confidence is shaken. Look at a quarterbacks eyes, they tell everything. Before the snap, he looks like a deer in the headlights at times.

I'm not saying that Carr is a bust, just that you cannot watch the Texans and pin all thier offensive woes on the line. I liked him coming out of Fresno State because he had a lot of physical tools. I hope he works out.

249 sacks my man!...tell me that is not the line...Say that 10-15 percent is Carr roaming out of the pocket or not throwing...you are still left with over 200 sacks since he entered the league...that's a major pounding...

Does he dump off?...sure when you are running for your life most of the time you dump off a lot...but his percentage has improved steady each year...look at Vick, he scrambles, breaks out of the pocket etc....and still has what?...about a 52% completion rating?

Any say the line is semi-improved (and I use the term losely)...who was running the ball for the Texans this year once Davis went down?...Running back by committee...now if that doesn't provide an opportunity for the D to sit on Andre Johnson all day, and force Carr (who is running for his dear life) to dump off...

Memories of Archie Manning...a great QB whose name should be up their with Roger Staubach and Terry Bradshaw if he did not spend the better part of his career getting killed as a Saint...

I will say it again...the man is twice the QB that Rex is...

[Notorious C.L.E.]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

249 sacks my man!...tell me that is not the line...Say that 10-15 percent is Carr roaming out of the pocket or not throwing...you are still left with over 200 sacks since he entered the league...that's a major pounding...

The offensive line does deserve the lion's share of the blame; however, David Carr can't get a free pass, which is the only point I was trying to make.

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Does he dump off?...sure when you are running for your life most of the time you dump off a lot...but his percentage has improved steady each year...look at Vick, he scrambles, breaks out of the pocket etc....and still has what?...about a 52% completion rating?

Again, I agree. When pressure is constantly in your face, you have to find the safety valve. I'm not faulting Carr for it, just saying that his completion percentages are misleading.

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Any say the line is semi-improved (and I use the term losely)...who was running the ball for the Texans this year once Davis went down?...Running back by committee...now if that doesn't provide an opportunity for the D to sit on Andre Johnson all day, and force Carr (who is running for his dear life) to dump off...

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Memories of Archie Manning...a great QB whose name should be up their with Roger Staubach and Terry Bradshaw if he did not spend the better part of his career getting killed as a Saint...

I will say it again...the man is twice the QB that Rex is...

This is where I disagree, but only to an extent.

David Carr should be a great quarterback. However, his body and confidence have been pounded since entering the NFL, resulting in him to develop some very bad habits that need correcting as soon as possible. I fear that he is beyond the point of no return, in that the dearth of talent and the relentless beatings he has taken have ruined him.

And for the record, I don't think that is his fault either. The Texans have screwed Carr over more than the other way around, like the media seems to believe. They've gone through more schemes than Paris Hilton has one-night stands and management has refused to give him protection.

Talent-wise, is Carr better than Grossman? Absolutely, although I don't know if I would be willing to gamble that I could extract the potential he showed coming out of college.

On a personal level, I hope Carr gets out of Houston and finds a place where his ship can be righted. He seems like a nice kid and should be commended for the moxie he has shown amidst beatings both on the field and from the fans and media. He deserves a fresh start.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

David Carr should be a great quarterback. However, his body and confidence have been pounded since entering the NFL, resulting in him to develop some very bad habits that need correcting as soon as possible. I fear that he is beyond the point of no return, in that the dearth of talent and the relentless beatings he has taken have ruined him.

And for the record, I don't think that is his fault either. The Texans have screwed Carr over more than the other way around, like the media seems to believe. They've gone through more schemes than Paris Hilton has one-night stands and management has refused to give him protection.

Talent-wise, is Carr better than Grossman? Absolutely, although I don't know if I would be willing to gamble that I could extract the potential he showed coming out of college.

On a personal level, I hope Carr gets out of Houston and finds a place where his ship can be righted. He seems like a nice kid and should be commended for the moxie he has shown amidst beatings both on the field and from the fans and media. He deserves a fresh start.

Naw see...you really don't know that...he has been pounded but yet has improved steadily look at the stats it will show it...

And if you take Manning as a yard stick...yeah he was pounded, yeah he had bad years on poor teams...and then 7 or 8 years into it, he still has some pro bowl years...

Carr will do the same...

If the kid was throwing the ball away instead of taking the pounding, you would be critical of his high precentage of interceptions...if he was throwing into coverage instead of dumping, you would be critical of that...if his completition percentage had not risen from 52% to 68%, you would be saying he has not progressed enough ala Eli Manning...

So really, the bottom line is, in the face of improvement during adverse season, you still can't find any praise for the kid...I think the only QBs you reserve any prasie for would be the the few you elevate past Favre...

The kid is good, the team is bad...say it with me now...

[Notorious C.L.E.]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Naw see...you really don't know that...he has been pounded but yet has improved steadily look at the stats it will show it...

And if you take Manning as a yard stick...yeah he was pounded, yeah he had bad years on poor teams...and then 7 or 8 years into it, he still has some pro bowl years...

Carr will do the same...

You tell me that I really don't know that his confidence is hurt, yet you came back and say that Carr will rebound and go on to put together Pro Bowl-type years. Do you really know that? It's a double-edged sword, my friend.

By the way, it is really pretty plain to see. Yes, Carr does look gunshy, and yes, he has developed some habits that are less than desirable.

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

If the kid was throwing the ball away instead of taking the pounding, you would be critical of his high precentage of interceptions...if he was throwing into coverage instead of dumping, you would be critical of that...if his completition percentage had not risen from 52% to 68%, you would be saying he has not progressed enough ala Eli Manning...

I'm going to take quotes from myself:

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

When pressure is constantly in your face, you have to find the safety valve. I'm not faulting Carr for it, just saying that his completion percentages are misleading.

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

And for the record, I don't think that is his fault either. The Texans have screwed Carr over more than the other way around, like the media seems to believe. They've gone through more schemes than Paris Hilton has one-night stands and management has refused to give him protection.

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

On a personal level, I hope Carr gets out of Houston and finds a place where his ship can be righted. He seems like a nice kid and should be commended for the moxie he has shown amidst beatings both on the field and from the fans and media. He deserves a fresh start.

Where did I fault him for anything?

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

So really, the bottom line is, in the face of improvement during adverse season, you still can't find any praise for the kid...I think the only QBs you reserve any prasie for would be the the few you elevate past Favre...

The kid is good, the team is bad...say it with me now...

Personally, I don't see any improvement. His mechanics and decision making ability have really regressed.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

You tell me that I really don't know that his confidence is hurt, yet you came back and say that Carr will rebound and go on to put together Pro Bowl-type years. Do you really know that? It's a double-edged sword, my friend .

Ah, while true enough...all the tangible evidence known as stats backs me up...the man has improved over the past five years...the rest is subjective...at least my subjective view is back by stats...yours...by personal observation...

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

By the way, it is really pretty plain to see. Yes, Carr does look gunshy, and yes, he has developed some habits that are less than desirable .

Again...subjective...base on observation...the stats shows his % interception down, his completion rate up...his QB rating up...bad habits be damned huh?...I don't mind subjective observation in a debate...but stats are fact and the stats don't back you, with the lone expection being yards per completion (which indicated he does dump it off...as he is getting killed)

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

Where did I fault him for anything?

Every other line in between...the bad habits...the lack of acknowledging his improvement...the total disregard for both QB rating and comp rating improvement...the attributing a portion of the sacks to him with out acknowledging his int rating is down...need I go on?....

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

Personally, I don't see any improvement. His mechanics and decision making ability have really regressed.

There you go again...personal opinion over hard stats...hey, if that is your way to back up a debate...who am I to get in the way...observe away my good man...personally I would glance at the stat sheet once in a while...

[Notorious C.L.E.]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Ah, while true enough...all the tangible evidence known as stats backs me up...the man has improved over the past five years...the rest is subjective...at least my subjective view is back by stats...yours...by personal observation...

I think everyone on this forum will tell you that statistics can be deceiving and can be manipulated to prove your point, especially when it comes to football.

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Again...subjective...base on observation...the stats shows his % interception down, his completion rate up...his QB rating up...bad habits be damned huh?...I don't mind subjective observation in a debate...but stats are fact and the stats don't back you, with the lone expection being yards per completion (which indicated he does dump it off...as he is getting killed)

1.) I have already discussed his completion percentage ad nauseum. Obviously, when you are throwing short, dump off passes your numbers are going to be misleading. Carr is an accurate passer, but you will never convince me that he is a legitimate 70% passer.

2.) God, I hope his interception numbers are down. The risk of throwing interceptions to safety valves is very slim. Thus, why they are called safety valves.

3.) QB Rating arbitrarily assigns all values of the formula as equal, which may or may not be accurate depending on your view of quarterback. It was a good benchmark in 1973 when it was first conceptualized, but statisticians have their fair share of criticism nowadays.

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Every other line in between...the bad habits...the lack of acknowledging his improvement...the total disregard for both QB rating and comp rating improvement...the attributing a portion of the sacks to him with out acknowledging his int rating is down...need I go on?....

He has developed bad habits, watch him, it is painfully obvious. I'm sorry, but when you mechanically regress from college, I have a hard time labeling it as improvement.

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

There you go again...personal opinion over hard stats...hey, if that is your way to back up a debate...who am I to get in the way...observe away my good man...personally I would glance at the stat sheet once in a while...

Stats are fine as supportive and supplemental evidence, but you are completely neglecting the observation side of the equation. To look solely at a stat sheet is not doing justice to the whole picture.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

I think everyone on this forum will tell you that statistics can be deceiving and can be manipulated to prove your point, especially when it comes to football .

Deceiving?...hardly in this case...when everyone is measured by the same yard stick, and every year by the same yard stick... and a QB improves on the given metrics yearly... then the case can be made that the QB is improving...for that much stats do lend themselves well...

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

1.) I have already discussed his completion percentage ad nauseum. Obviously, when you are throwing short, dump off passes your numbers are going to be misleading. Carr is an accurate passer, but you will never convince me that he is a legitimate 70% passer.

Is he a 70% passer all around?...hardly...has he improved 18% since his rookie year?...Yes...is 18% a pretty good measure that he is improving?...yes...how many passers in the league are 70% passers?...none really...now given that, is David Carr closer to those that are tops in the league or those that are in the bottom when it comes to completing passes?...Top...That much is not debatable.

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

2.) God, I hope his interception numbers are down. The risk of throwing interceptions to safety valves is very slim. Thus, why they are called safety valves.

You can't pin the fact that his primary targets are covered and he dumps off to bad decision making...but you can indeed point to the fact that he is not throwing bad passes into coverage with his low % interception rating. The number supports the fact that he is making better than average decision by not forcing passes ala Rex...how is that a negative?

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

3.) QB Rating arbitrarily assigns all values of the formula as equal, which may or may not be accurate depending on your view of quarterback. It was a good benchmark in 1973 when it was first conceptualized, but statisticians have their fair share of criticism nowadays.

Boy are you really, really, really reaching now... ...the QB rating system may not be perfect, but as long as the whole league is measured by it, it does provide a metric by which QBs can be measured...It correctly penalizes the gunslinger for his interceptions...and awards those that move the yard stick, complete a high percentage of passes and TDs...under this metric is the whole league measured...under this metric Carr keeps improving...those two points cannot be argued.

The system is far better than what was in place before hand...it also seems to reward QBs with great seasons like Manning and Brees while penalizing the gun slinging Favre and the inconsistent Vick...

Thus to bring it up as a poor metric is but a sign that you are back peddling their my friend...Since you are unable to make the numbers come out in your favor, you then attack and discredit the system...and all the while without proposing a better metric...

In a court of law, you would be trying to wow them with words...words that would lack substance...

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

He has developed bad habits, watch him, it is painfully obvious. I'm sorry, but when you mechanically regress from college, I have a hard time labeling it as improvement. .

Again, you are unable to quantify this claim...as the numbers do not back you...it is strictly opinion...again you disregard the time he has to throw given the line he has...again you disregard the lack of backs he had this season...again you disregard stats...and why?...because you have the sole power of observation...a classic defense... ...a poor one...but classic none the less...

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

Stats are fine as supportive and supplemental evidence, but you are completely neglecting the observation side of the equation. To look solely at a stat sheet is not doing justice to the whole picture.

Ah, but the point was that I do support my argument with facts...I am saying simply, "The stats show he is improving"...a quantifiable argument...you state..."He seems to be regressing to me"...and unquantifiable argument.

[Notorious C.L.E.]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Deceiving?...hardly in this case...when everyone is measured by the same yard stick, and every year by the same yard stick... and a QB improves on the given metrics yearly... then the case can be made that the QB is improving...for that much stats do lend themselves well...

But not in an instance where the aforesaid statistics are fundamentally flawed. This whole argument can be traced to the validity of the statistics you are using, mainly completion percentage. If you believe that is an honest benchmark for improvement, then you can keep selling, but Gary Kubiak and I ain't buying.

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Is he a 70% passer all around?...hardly...has he improved 18% since his rookie year?...Yes...is 18% a pretty good measure that he is improving?...yes...how many passers in the league are 70% passers?...none really...now given that, is David Carr closer to those that are tops in the league or those that are in the bottom when it comes to completing passes?...Top...That much is not debatable.

Again, the completion percent numbers are faulty. I would hope he could make dump off passes to safety valves, he was the first overall pick. Carr is above average accuracy-wise, but he has developed some tendencies. If you fail to at least recognize that, then you are blind to the reality.

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

You can't pin the fact that his primary targets are covered and he dumps off to bad decision making...but you can indeed point to the fact that he is not throwing bad passes into coverage with his low % interception rating. The number supports the fact that he is making better than average decision by not forcing passes ala Rex...how is that a negative?

I feel like a broken record. I never faulted him for dumping off. I would rather he do that than let pressure get to him. Generally, Carr makes sound decisions downfield. His field vision has improved since entering the NFL, and he is one of the better ones in that aspect.

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Boy are you really, really, really reaching now... ...the QB rating system may not be perfect, but as long as the whole league is measured by it, it does provide a metric by which QBs can be measured...It correctly penalizes the gunslinger for his interceptions...and awards those that move the yard stick, complete a high percentage of passes and TDs...under this metric is the whole league measured...under this metric Carr keeps improving...those two points cannot be argued.

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

The system is far better than what was in place before hand...it also seems to reward QBs with great seasons like Manning and Brees while penalizing the gun slinging Favre and the inconsistent Vick...

Really, I'm not backpedaling though, as I was just bringing up that some professionals feel it to be a bit misleading. Frankly, I cannot comment on it because I do not know the intricacies of it. I just know that certain statisticians really don't put all their stock into it. For example, it does not differentiate between at-fault and no-fault interceptions, nor does it add anything for having a quarterback that is mobile.

I decided to look up some statistics. David Carr's rating this year was worse than it was in 2004, if you insist on pounding that statistic as proof of improvement. Along the same lines, his completion percentage previous to this year has never been above 62%, and he actually regressed between 2004 and 2005. His yards per attempt averages are hideous, with his being 6.3 and Rex Grossman's being 6.7.

Think those stats are nonsense? Personally, I do. But, I can just as easily spin statistics to support my point of view.

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Thus to bring it up as a poor metric is but a sign that you are back peddling their my friend...Since you are unable to make the numbers come out in your favor, you then attack and discredit the system...and all the while without proposing a better metric...

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

In a court of law, you would be trying to wow them with words...words that would lack substance...

See above.

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Again, you are unable to quantify this claim...as the numbers do not back you...it is strictly opinion...again you disregard the time he has to throw given the line he has...again you disregard the lack of backs he had this season...again you disregard stats...and why?...because you have the sole power of observation...a classic defense... ...a poor one...but classic none the less...

The stats I gave above backed up my points perfectly fine.

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Ah, but the point was that I do support my argument with facts...I am saying simply, "The stats show he is improving"...a quantifiable argument...you state..."He seems to be regressing to me"...and unquantifiable argument.

I gave statistical proof of my opinion.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

But not in an instance where the aforesaid statistics are fundamentally flawed. This whole argument can be traced to the validity of the statistics you are using, mainly completion percentage. If you believe that is an honest benchmark for improvement, then you can keep selling, but Gary Kubiak and I ain't buying .

Didn't no you and Kubiak are buddies...but okay, lets talk metrics...first who said i was mainly talking about % complete?...did you miss the part about lower int %, or overall QB rating...or improvement in these categories over a 5 year stretch...cause I could swear I included them all in there...but lets go further...his 2005 was worse the 2004 huh?...did you really look at the stats their hoss?...did you see where he took 68 sacks in 2004???...did you see the dip happened at the same time he is taking 20 more sacks then before???...no?...huh?...cause what it tells me is that in 2005 he was literally running for his dear life...yet the same year he was still able to throw more TDs then Ints...both which are weighed differently in the QB rating system...which penalizes ints at a greater rate then TDs...

But hey, I am sure that you and your buddy Kubiak have taken those stats into account as well right?...right?...

Then you speak of flaws in the numbers only to conceed later that you do not really know the ins and outs of the QB rating metric as a whole...hmmm...the numbers are flawed, but you do not know the metric all that well...huh?...so pray tell, how are the numbers thus flawed?

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

Again, the completion percent numbers are faulty. I would hope he could make dump off passes to safety valves, he was the first overall pick. Carr is above average accuracy-wise, but he has developed some tendencies. If you fail to at least recognize that, then you are blind to the reality.

Blind to reality?...the reality that his % has improved steady?...the reality that it now lies near the top of the league?...those measured realities???...really???...want to tell me about reality again...cause from here the reality has him going from a 52% to 68%...last I looked that is a mighty big jump...but hey, I don't really know what that means in your altered reality...

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

I feel like a broken record. I never faulted him for dumping off. I would rather he do that than let pressure get to him. Generally, Carr makes sound decisions downfield. His field vision has improved since entering the NFL, and he is one of the better ones in that aspect.

Ah, praise for the man...I knew if we dig deep enough...

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

Really, I'm not backpedaling though, as I was just bringing up that some professionals feel it to be a bit misleading. Frankly, I cannot comment on it because I do not know the intricacies of it.

And yet I do...imagine that...you are arguing against a metric you do not know...and yet I know the formula for the metric and weight assigned to each category...hmmm...who would be in a better position to make a judgement on the metric the NFL uses?...that would be...me...

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

I just know that certain statisticians really don't put all their stock into it. For example, it does not differentiate between at-fault and no-fault interceptions,

No it doesn't...but...it does provided a level playing field...thus a yard stick...lets go over it again...it measures TDs and Int %...with the weight on the Int higher...it measures % completion and yards per throw...

Given that Carr is penalized for having to dumped off to the backs by the yards per complete...which then is a virtual wash on for the higher % he completes...thus dumping to the backs doesn't get him all that much...follow?...its a trade off at best...

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

nor does it add anything for having a quarterback that is mobile.

nope, but Carr gets a respectible 4.6 yards a carry, a plus on his side.

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

I decided to look up some statistics. David Carr's rating this year was worse than it was in 2004,

You mean the 1.4 points he went down in this 'flawed system?"...you wanna finish the thought there?...wanna tell me about the numbers...I mean we can talk numbers...see that other little number over there, the yards per pass...the one that went from 7.6 to 6.3...that one whose difference comes out to about 1.3...that is Dave dumping to his backs...that is Dave being hurt by a team that can neither get open or give him time to throw...enough to make the little bit of difference...not only that, without a reliable back...the D sat on him, and his TDs went from 16 to 11...and yet the man almost matched his rating...huh...imagine that...he doesn't have a line...he doesn't have a back...and his number stays about the same...how cool is that?

But now, if you expand your research and saw the 62.8 and 69.5 of his first two years and the 77.2 of his fourth (when he was sacked an unodly 68 times) you can see that the trend overall is what?...up...which is about all you can asked for from a flawed system...right?...right?...

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

if you insist on pounding that statistic as proof of improvement. Along the same lines, his completion percentage previous to this year has never been above 62%, and he actually regressed between 2004 and 2005 .

52% to 56% to 60's to 68%...say it with me...I know you can...he has done what?...come on now...don't be shy...he has IMPROVED!

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

His yards per attempt averages are hideous, with his being 6.3 and Rex Grossman's being 6.7.

It is football that you follow right?...I mean, you, by observation saw a guy playing with out a starting back most of the season, and a bad line...you saw him have to dump the ball right?...so pray tell how does that make that hideous 6.3 Dave Carr's fault?...Grossman had a decent running game, a line, good wideouts, and a great D...and he beat him by what now?...0.4...huh?...imagine what Dave Carr could do with what Rex had...I mean as long as we are now talking numbers.

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

Think those stats are nonsense? Personally, I do. But, I can just as easily spin statistics to support my point of view.

Ahhh...hmmm...wouldn't that require learning the metric that is QB rating first?...I mean before you go all crazy applying it...shouldn't you know how the numbers come together?...isn't that a pre-requisite for spinning the numbers?...just making a small observation...

But to answer your question..." I guess if you really do not know the equation (as you say you don't) then yeah, the stats are meaningless...now if you do know the numbers...well then...no...they are not nonsense....have we covered it all?...I would be happy to go through the whole math formula with you...I mean, it would be a whole new thread, but in the name of more analytical and quantitative debates...I am willing...Wait!...don't tell me...who needs numbers, you and your buddy Kubiak have the power of observation...saw it coming mate...the offer stands.



See above.

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

The stats I gave above backed up my points perfectly fine.

Gee, at the risk of repeating myself...wouldn't you have to know the metric a wee bit better than you do?...

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

I gave statistical proof of my opinion.

No, you presented numbers without an analysis of the numbers...you gave numbers in context to two years not a career...you gave numbers without the benefit of studying related variables...such as sacks, the line, the different teams that Dave and Rex played on...you gave numbers without a grasp as how they relate to a QB rating...I can go on and on if you like...

I mean, if we are going to talk numbers...pull up a chair and welcome to my world...

[azrael492]

I don't mean to grind this entertaining debate to a halt, but I would vote for you to start a new thread to explain the QB rating. I have wondered for years how they came up with it. I promise I will be a good student.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by azrael492

I don't mean to grind this entertaining debate to a halt, but I would vote for you to start a new thread to explain the QB rating. I have wondered for years how they came up with it. I promise I will be a good student.

LOL...sure why not...

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by azrael492

I don't mean to grind this entertaining debate to a halt, but I would vote for you to start a new thread to explain the QB rating. I have wondered for years how they came up with it. I promise I will be a good student.

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

LOL...sure why not...

omg......and now i know who's to blame for that little headache

jk azreal............i love having the most info out there to learn from

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by simple simon