[Gotham Dark Knight]

Paul Pierce is having perhaps his finest season despite the teams inability to win. Currently he is averaging 27.1 points a game, 6.7 boards and 4.7 assists...and after eight seasons in the league he has a 23.5 career average. But given that the Celtics can't win with him even with him at his best can he be considered an All-Time Celtic Great?...Would you place him on the All-Time 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team?

[ThePundit]

It's hard to say. The Celtics have about 20 hall of famers - many of whom I've never seen play: Guys off the top of my head: Bird, McCale, Russell, Havlicek, Cousy,Cowens, Parrish, Sam Jones, Tom Heinson...It's hard for me to compare him to a lot of those guys.

The thing about Pierce is he's never won anything with the Celts. Everybody else has been part of a championship team so it's like comparing apples and oranges.

[legend]

Pierce can't help that he is a Celtic during their darkest hours. He is probably a third teamer as an all time Celtic great, because that is a hard line up to crack.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by ThePundit

It's hard to say. The Celtics have about 20 hall of famers - many of whom I've never seen play: Guys off the top of my head: Bird, McCale, Russell, Havlicek, Cousy,Cowens, Parrish, Sam Jones, Tom Heinson...It's hard for me to compare him to a lot of those guys.

The thing about Pierce is he's never won anything with the Celts. Everybody else has been part of a championship team so it's like comparing apples and oranges.

Okay, limit your scope...he's a small forward...with that in mind, is he 3rd behind the fabled Bird and Havlicek?

[Lefty Noob]

Yeah, like Pundit says - Pierce is a good player, but he needs a ring to be considered an "All-Time Celtic Great".

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

Yeah, like Pundit says - Pierce is a good player, but he needs a ring to be considered an "All-Time Celtic Great".

By that standard Dan Marino is not an All-time great...correct???

[Lefty Noob]

Hey, if Pierce breaks even half the number of records Marino did, then he earns the title. But he's not at that level of personal excellence, so he needs to prove himself as a team leader and a clutch performer instead.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

Hey, if Pierce breaks even half the number of records Marino did, then he earns the title. But he's not at that level of personal excellence, so he needs to prove himself as a team leader and a clutch performer instead.

Aaaah, a touchy-feely answer, without a clear measureable standard..."team leader and clutch performer"...is he not that?...Is it his fault that its all on his shoulders?...Is he not the team leader already?...and does he not get the ball when the chips are down?...
...would you rather hand him the ball or say Cornbread Maxwell of the Championship teams of the 80's?

[ThePundit]

I didn't say Pierce shouldn't be considered an all-time great. I said it's hard to compare him to some of those Celtics because 1) they played within the framework of championship dynasties AND I never saw them play. ( I probably should have emphasized the 2nd part more in my explanation). There are so many Great celtics that I never saw. I couldn't even try to compare a guy like Tom Heinson to Pierce.

Compared to the guys I've seen: 70's and up - I'd probably put him on the second team - meaning he's in the top 10 players of the last 30 years with guys like: Russell, Cowens, Havlicek, Bird, McCahle, DJ, Parrish, JoJO White & Pierce. A little clearer?

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by ThePundit

I didn't say Pierce shouldn't be considered an all-time great. I said it's hard to compare him to some of those Celtics because 1) they played within the framework of championship dynasties AND I never saw them play. ( I probably should have emphasized the 2nd part more in my explanation). There are so many Great celtics that I never saw. I couldn't even try to compare a guy like Tom Heinson to Pierce.

Compared to the guys I've seen: 70's and up - I'd probably put him on the second team - meaning he's in the top 10 players of the last 30 years with guys like: Russell, Cowens, Havlicek, Bird, McCahle, DJ, Parrish, JoJO White & Pierce. A little clearer?

Sure...I mean you got three centers there...but Cowen can always move to power foward...Havlicek is a swingman...so sure...you are on board...thanks for playing...

[Lefty Noob]

Would you rather hand him the ball or say Cornbread Maxwell of the Championship teams of the 80's?

I never said the ring was the only thing, but it HAS to play an important role. Let me ask you this: would you rather Pierce take that final shot, or a guy like Ainge or DJ? Neither of them have been mentioned as "Celtic Greats" but I'd take either one of them on a buzzer beater over Pierce.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

I never said the ring was the only thing, but it HAS to play an important role. Let me ask you this: would you rather Pierce take that final shot, or a guy like Ainge or DJ? Neither of them have been mentioned as "Celtic Greats" but I'd take either one of them on a buzzer beater over Pierce.

I've seen Ainge and DJ play...and I'd take Pierce...I was a big Ainge fan since BYU...and DJ was a good on D...but at clutch time I would not take either of them....the Celtics would have had a few more championships if their back court of Ainge and DJ had been a bit better...There is a reason these guys are not Celtic greats...they were a part of a great Celtic Era, but not great per say...having said that, Ainge in the NCAA Tournament going coast to coast as time ran out is a classic...

[ThePundit]

Gotham: Based strictly on positioning, I would agree with you that he'd be a second teamer behind Havlicek and Bird at small forward. Good question Gotham and a very hard one to answer.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by ThePundit

Gotham: Based strictly on positioning, I would agree with you that he'd be a second teamer behind Havlicek and Bird at small forward. Good question Gotham and a very hard one to answer.

Pundit my man, I was giving you leeway on the answer...Havlicek was a heck of a small forward, but he ran all day long, was a gifted athlete drafted by the Browns...and at 6'5" would have made gifted swingman...

[wedge]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

I never said the ring was the only thing, but it HAS to play an important role. Let me ask you this: would you rather Pierce take that final shot, or a guy like Ainge or DJ? Neither of them have been mentioned as "Celtic Greats" but I'd take either one of them on a buzzer beater over Pierce.

At least Pierce could create his own shot and maybe even get to the line. The other players created for DJ and Ainge.

I'd rather have Reggie Lewis take the shot then all three of them. A truly forgotten great Celtic of the past.