[stepay]

What do you think?

I'll go with:

Roy Halladay - Roy Halladay probably doesn't get the press he deserves because he plays in Canada, but man is that guy good. 141-69 for a winning percentage of .671!

Derek Jeter - Some put this guy in the most OVERRATED category, but I think they fail to see the greatness that is this guy. 6 seasons so far with 200 or more hits and 3 more with 190 or more. .316 average and no signs yet of slowing down (at age 35 at the break, he's batting .321 with 110 hits. I say he's underrated because while most would say he's on a Hall of Fame track, I don't think most would say he's one of the best shortstops ever, and I think he is. He will be over 2700 hits when this season ends. He will blow by 3000 hits in his career. He JUST turned 35. He may end up with 3500 hits. Great, great player...and I'm not a Yankee fan.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

I will give you Halladay as one of my brothers and I were discussing just that yesterday.

But not Jeter. I don't think you can be underrated as the Captain of the Yankees...underrated would be a small market player like Justin Morneau who can battle for the RBI title year in and year out and you really would not know it much unless he is beating a tired a tired Josh Hamilton in a homerun derby.

[stepay]

I think you can be great and recognized as great and STILL be underrated. I've heard people say (even on this forum) that Jeter will be in the Hall of Fame "because of the rings". NOPE. He'll be in the Hall of Fame because of a truckload of hits, possibly 300 home runs for a shortstop, and a very good batting average, "The Play", solid (not stellar) work at defense, and all the other things this guy does to be at the top of his game. I put him in the underrated category because too many are not recognizing just HOW great he is.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by stepay

I think you can be great and recognized as great and STILL be underrated. I've heard people say (even on this forum) that Jeter will be in the Hall of Fame "because of the rings". NOPE. He'll be in the Hall of Fame because of a truckload of hits, possibly 300 home runs for a shortstop, and a very good batting average, "The Play", solid (not stellar) work at defense, and all the other things this guy does to be at the top of his game. I put him in the underrated category because too many are not recognizing just HOW great he is.

You proved my point...here you are talking about Jeters' greatness (again)...when you wouldn't even comment on Justin Morneau...as long as half of the people are talking about how "great Jeter" is...he isn't underrated...some players no matter what they do on the field will not be recognized...

[kkfan91]

position player i have to go with recently named as a replacement for the all star team Phillies right fielder Jason Werth he is a good hitter and a good hitter he's been a good player these last 2 years for the Phils

on pitchers Hallowdays good hopefully the Phillies trade for him

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by kkfan91

position player i have to go with recently named as a replacement for the all star team Phillies right fielder Jason Werth he is a good hitter and a good hitter he's been a good player these last 2 years for the Phils

on pitchers Hallowdays good hopefully the Phillies trade for him

Werth does get lost in the middle of that big Phillies lineup...there is a former 1st round draft pick that did hardly nothing for 10 years and suddenly he is a 20-20 player (possibly a 30-20 player this year)...

[kkfan91]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Werth does get lost in the middle of that big Phillies lineup...there is a former 1st round draft pick that did hardly nothing for 10 years and suddenly he is a 20-20 player (possibly a 30-20 player this year)...

he is at 19 homers right now so i think 30 is likely actually i think half the lineup Howard Utley Wearth and Ibanez might get 30 this year

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by kkfan91

he is at 19 homers right now so i think 30 is likely actually i think half the lineup Howard Utley Wearth and Ibanez might get 30 this year

Good possibility...though now they are all in the 20's...Werth has 20 too...Victorino has to love hitting in that lineup...though Rollins has fallen off the ends of the earth.

[kkfan91]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Good possibility...though now they are all in the 20's...Werth has 20 too...Victorino has to love hitting in that lineup...though Rollins has fallen off the ends of the earth.

Rollins has been getting back in it the past few games he is on his way back up

[stepay]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

You proved my point...here you are talking about Jeters' greatness (again)...when you wouldn't even comment on Justin Morneau...as long as half of the people are talking about how "great Jeter" is...he isn't underrated...some players no matter what they do on the field will not be recognized...

No, as great as many think Jeter is, the vast majority don't give him the true greatness stature he is deserved. Like I said before, you can be considered great and STILL be underrated. Colin Cowherd had a segment to this very point about a week ago. He made the point that Tiger Woods is underrated. I agree...even though anyone who knows anything about golf (and even some of us who don't) knows that he's probably the greatest player who ever lived, not everyone realizes how bad the TV ratings are for tournaments he doesn't play in. He dropped out recently of one in Colorado, and they canceled the tournament. Tiger Woods is EVERYTHING in golf today, and not every one agrees or understands that, so he is underrated because of that.

Justin Morneau is a great player of course, and I agree underrated mostly because of where he plays. Nice MVP year and a second place too, but when looking at both players, Jeter has to come out on top. Morneau has a career .285 average and while he has more power than Jeter, his career high is just 34 home runs which isn't really all that much these days (though he may break that this year). Also, Jeter has been doing it longer. If Jeter can stay healthy and he wants to play long enough, he could get close to 4,000 hits. Crazy how good he is.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by stepay

No, as great as many think Jeter is, the vast majority don't give him the true greatness stature he is deserved. Like I said before, you can be considered great and STILL be underrated. Colin Cowherd had a segment to this very point about a week ago. He made the point that Tiger Woods is underrated. I agree...even though anyone who knows anything about golf (and even some of us who don't) knows that he's probably the greatest player who ever lived, not everyone realizes how bad the TV ratings are for tournaments he doesn't play in. He dropped out recently of one in Colorado, and they canceled the tournament. Tiger Woods is EVERYTHING in golf today, and not every one agrees or understands that, so he is underrated because of that.

Justin Morneau is a great player of course, and I agree underrated mostly because of where he plays. Nice MVP year and a second place too, but when looking at both players, Jeter has to come out on top. Morneau has a career .285 average and while he has more power than Jeter, his career high is just 34 home runs which isn't really all that much these days (though he may break that this year). Also, Jeter has been doing it longer. If Jeter can stay healthy and he wants to play long enough, he could get close to 4,000 hits. Crazy how good he is.

My man Jeter ain't getting 4,000 hits...now that is crazy talk...

Woods ain't underrated either...its like just because Muhammed Ali had people who disliked him in his prime he was not underrated.

Jeter certainly a Haller by anyone standards...but he is not making anyone's top all-time great list...slice up his stats any which way you want and you still have what you have...a Hall of Fame player, on the best team money can buy...he gets the ink he is entitled too...and he gets the boos he is entitled to by virtue of where he plays and who he is...

For all the stats you have pointed out, you neglect to point out the +1,400 K's he has in lifetime (compare him to say Joe DiMaggio who barely struckout), the fact that he has never won an MVP award, or that he plays year in and year out on the highest pay roll in baseball...which basically means overall he is rated about where he should be...a future Hall of Fame player who deserves to be over looked when you talk about the best of the best.

You scolded KKfan about supporting his view, but I do not see a volume of people calling Jeters underrated...personal opinion aside, name a legit source that speaks of Jeters as underrated????

[stepay]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

My man Jeter ain't getting 4,000 hits...now that is crazy talk...

Woods ain't underrated either...its like just because Muhammed Ali had people who disliked him in his prime he was not underrated.

Jeter certainly a Haller by anyone standards...but he is not making anyone's top all-time great list...slice up his stats any which way you want and you still have what you have...a Hall of Fame player, on the best team money can buy...he gets the ink he is entitled too...and he gets the boos he is entitled to by virtue of where he plays and who he is...

For all the stats you have pointed out, you neglect to point out the +1,400 K's he has in lifetime (compare him to say Joe DiMaggio who barely struckout), the fact that he has never won an MVP award, or that he plays year in and year out on the highest pay roll in baseball...which basically means overall he is rated about where he should be...a future Hall of Fame player who deserves to be over looked when you talk about the best of the best.

You scolded KKfan about supporting his view, but I do not see a volume of people calling Jeters underrated...personal opinion aside, name a legit source that speaks of Jeters as underrated????

It is a unique view I have, I'll give you that.

Some points:

1) I didn't say he WOULD get 4,000 hits, only that he could come close to it. He currently has 2,645 hits and JUST turned 35. He should end the season with about 2,730 or so. He starts next season at age 35. Let's say he plays until he's 42 (beginning of the season).

35 - 190
36 - 185
37 - 175
38 - 165
39 - 160
40 - 138
41 - 129
42 - 118

I've given him very declining numbers of hits for the next 8 seasons. Since he averages 207 hits per 162 games, the above is certainly reasonable.

2,730 + 1,260 = 3990!

That's VERY close to 4,000. Who knows how he'll age though or when he'll decide he wants to hang them up. Maybe he's done in 2-3 more years...maybe not.

2) I realize that you don't think he's making anyone's all-time top list, and that's my point...that's why he's underrated (do note that I said he should be considered one of the best SHORTSTOPS ever, not one of the best overall ever). He SHOULD be up there, and depending on where he ends up with career numbers, it's possible he should be talked about as the best shortstop ever.

3) Dimaggio played against inferior pitching and defense and was not a shortstop.

4) I AM supporting my view though, unlike the poster you mentioned. Just because not everyone is supporting my view makes no difference. If Jeter had a career-ending injury tomorrow, my statement that he's underrated would not be as close to the truth as it will be once this guy's career is over. Even so, I don't think he's getting the credit he is due...you say some of the things that many do that try to diminish what he's done...he's on the Yankees...big payroll, etc. Well, he's on the Yankees with the big payroll because he's Derek Jeter, and the Yankees always try to get the best there is.

[Lefty Noob]

Pitcher--Matt Cain of the Giants. Overshadowed by his teammate Lincecum. Runner up would be Zack Duke of the Bucs. Get him on a contender and you'll really see what he's capable of.

Position Player--Lots of good picks here, but my sentimental choice is Jason Bay of the Sox (formely of the Pirates). Never mentioned as one of the top players, and his average is a tad low, but he's got 20 homers, leads the AL in RBI, former Rookie of the Year and 3-time All-Star. He played about six full seasons total with Pittsburgh (including partial seasons in 2003 and 200 and is still 8th in franchise history in home runs. Impressive.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

It is a unique view I have, I'll give you that.


2) I realize that you don't think he's making anyone's all-time top list, and that's my point...

or maybe its because he is not a all-time great that may well be the other reason...

that's why he's underrated (do note that I said he should be considered one of the best SHORTSTOPS ever, not one of the best overall ever). He SHOULD be up there, and depending on where he ends up with career numbers, it's possible he should be talked about as the best shortstop ever.

How? He has all of 3 gold gloves and there are plenty of better fielding shortstops to play the game...in other words he is not in Ozzie's good company.

What more he has limited power and strikes out a lot...so he is not a great contact hitter, and yet not a power hitter...his slugging percentage topped .500 once...Wagner was by far a better hitter, Banks a lot more power, Apparcio could steal better....etc...Jeter at best is a good hybrid of some of the better players at the position.

As good as he is, Jeter's numbers are also inflated due to the amount of total plate apparences that are generated batting in the Yankee lineup which also accounts for the tons of runs he scores.

HOWEVER, I crunched the numbers and it is reasonable to assume he will get close to 4,000 hits barring injury, a faster rate of decline, or him staying interested in the game when he does decline.

3) Dimaggio played against inferior pitching and defense and was not a shortstop.

I would argue that the amount of teams today makes for watered down pitching as compare to Joe D's time. My point however was that a great hitter does not K alot. Don't like Joey D. Then maybe Banks, there is a power hitter that struckout a lot less even when swing for the fences, in an era with decent to great pitching.

4) I AM supporting my view though, unlike the poster you mentioned. Just because not everyone is supporting my view makes no difference. If Jeter had a career-ending injury tomorrow, my statement that he's underrated would not be as close to the truth as it will be once this guy's career is over. Even so, I don't think he's getting the credit he is due...See that is where we differ. The guy is HOF good, and everyone knows that...but few if any will leap out an make him their best of all-time at SS. So he is rated about where he should be.

you say some of the things that many do that try to diminish what he's done...he's on the Yankees...big payroll, etc. Well, he's on the Yankees with the big payroll because he's Derek Jeter, and the Yankees always try to get the best there is.

I got no problem calling him the best all around of this generation of player and as such not underrated. I do have issues with terms like best of all-time and overrated.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

Pitcher--Matt Cain of the Giants. Overshadowed by his teammate Lincecum. Runner up would be Zack Duke of the Bucs. Get him on a contender and you'll really see what he's capable of.

Position Player--Lots of good picks here, but my sentimental choice is Jason Bay of the Sox (formely of the Pirates). Never mentioned as one of the top players, and his average is a tad low, but he's got 20 homers, leads the AL in RBI, former Rookie of the Year and 3-time All-Star. He played about six full seasons total with Pittsburgh (including partial seasons in 2003 and 200 and is still 8th in franchise history in home runs. Impressive.

Bay and Duke? Your Pirate fanhood is showing...though I too think Bay is underrated because he is not the vocal nut that Manny Ramirez was...he goes in and does a great job quietly.