[stepay]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

It is a unique view I have, I'll give you that.


2) I realize that you don't think he's making anyone's all-time top list, and that's my point...

or maybe its because he is not a all-time great that may well be the other reason...

that's why he's underrated (do note that I said he should be considered one of the best SHORTSTOPS ever, not one of the best overall ever). He SHOULD be up there, and depending on where he ends up with career numbers, it's possible he should be talked about as the best shortstop ever.

How? He has all of 3 gold gloves and there are plenty of better fielding shortstops to play the game...in other words he is not in Ozzie's good company.

What more he has limited power and strikes out a lot...so he is not a great contact hitter, and yet not a power hitter...his slugging percentage topped .500 once...Wagner was by far a better hitter, Banks a lot more power, Apparcio could steal better....etc...Jeter at best is a good hybrid of some of the better players at the position.

As good as he is, Jeter's numbers are also inflated due to the amount of total plate apparences that are generated batting in the Yankee lineup which also accounts for the tons of runs he scores.

HOWEVER, I crunched the numbers and it is reasonable to assume he will get close to 4,000 hits barring injury, a faster rate of decline, or him staying interested in the game when he does decline.

3) Dimaggio played against inferior pitching and defense and was not a shortstop.

I would argue that the amount of teams today makes for watered down pitching as compare to Joe D's time. My point however was that a great hitter does not K alot. Don't like Joey D. Then maybe Banks, there is a power hitter that struckout a lot less even when swing for the fences, in an era with decent to great pitching.

4) I AM supporting my view though, unlike the poster you mentioned. Just because not everyone is supporting my view makes no difference. If Jeter had a career-ending injury tomorrow, my statement that he's underrated would not be as close to the truth as it will be once this guy's career is over. Even so, I don't think he's getting the credit he is due...See that is where we differ. The guy is HOF good, and everyone knows that...but few if any will leap out an make him their best of all-time at SS. So he is rated about where he should be.

you say some of the things that many do that try to diminish what he's done...he's on the Yankees...big payroll, etc. Well, he's on the Yankees with the big payroll because he's Derek Jeter, and the Yankees always try to get the best there is.

I got no problem calling him the best all around of this generation of player and as such not underrated. I do have issues with terms like best of all-time and overrated.

1) Luis Aparicio? Great player but doesn't deserve to be compared to Derek Jeter, not now, and certainly not when Jeter is all done.

2) Ernie Banks. He will ALWAYS be considered one of the great shortstops, but do remember he moved to first base for the last half of his career, his batting average was WAY worse than Jeter's, and he had fewer hits in his whole career than Jeter has now, and of course, no rings.

3) As you crunched the numbers and see that Jeter COULD flirt with 4,000 hits, then let's imagine he does it. ANY player who gets 4,000 hits MUST be at least considered to be the best ever at their position. Throw in the batting average, the little bit of power and the championship teams he guided, and he will for SURE be talked about by many as the best shortstop ever. Add in the fact that Alex Rodriguez came to New York and had to move to third base...man the legend just grows. You are denying that he should be talked about as perhaps the greatest SS ever, and that is exactly my point. I believe he should be talked about in that way (not if his career ended tomorrow, but he's on the path to it). He is BETTER than many even informed baseball people give him credit for and therefore underrated.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

1) Luis Aparicio? Great player but doesn't deserve to be compared to Derek Jeter, not now, and certainly not when Jeter is all done.

9 gold gloves and 9 steal titles in a row says that Aparicio can be involved in any conversation about great shortstops...

He was a better fielder and runner than Jeter.
Jeter is a better hitter.
neither have/had power.

Once again, you are stuck on "hitting" and "longevity" as being the only worth while criteria. Which is why you pass on Willie Mays and take Aaron etc.

Unfortunately baseball is more than hitting.


2) Ernie Banks. He will ALWAYS be considered one of the great shortstops, but do remember he moved to first base for the last half of his career,

Yes I do.

his batting average was WAY worse than Jeter's, and he had fewer hits in his whole career than Jeter has now, and of course, no rings.

Please, you would rate Banks a worse hitter than Jeter's??? The man was a power hitting shortstop with 2 MVPs. You do not see that every day. I would take him over Jeter any day of the week.

And the rings has more to do with the players Jeter has around him than what Banks had...at best, on his best year, Banks had Billy Williams, maybe Ron Santo and Jenkins pitching...Jeter plays with the best money can buy.

3) As you crunched the numbers and see that Jeter COULD flirt with 4,000 hits, then let's imagine he does it. ANY player who gets 4,000 hits MUST be at least considered to be the best ever at their position.

No, wrong.

I love Pete Rose. My favorite player growing up and still is. I loved how he played and I would track every 200 hit season year after year.

Having said that, and taking into account he was able to play 2B, LF, RF, 3B, 1B etc during his career...He was limited in skill and would be sitting on the bench of an All-time great team....along with Jeter.

Having said that, kudos to Jeter. 4,000 hits is a heck of a milestone...and after Rose I did not forsee a player even flirting with it.

Throw in the batting average, the little bit of power and the championship teams he guided, and he will for SURE be talked about by many as the best shortstop ever.

He would be in the conversation at best.

Add in the fact that Alex Rodriguez came to New York and had to move to third base...man the legend just grows. You are denying that he should be talked about as perhaps the greatest SS ever, and that is exactly my point. I believe he should be talked about in that way (not if his career ended tomorrow, but he's on the path to it). He is BETTER than many even informed baseball people give him credit for and therefore underrated.

We disagree. He has limited power, and he is a good but not exceptional fielder for a position that prizes fielding pretty darn high.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Well, put Jeter over there next to Aaron...and lets move on to our next disagreement...

[stepay]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

1) Luis Aparicio? Great player but doesn't deserve to be compared to Derek Jeter, not now, and certainly not when Jeter is all done.

9 gold gloves and 9 steal titles in a row says that Aparicio can be involved in any conversation about great shortstops...

He was a better fielder and runner than Jeter.
Jeter is a better hitter.
neither have/had power.

Once again, you are stuck on "hitting" and "longevity" as being the only worth while criteria. Which is why you pass on Willie Mays and take Aaron etc.

Unfortunately baseball is more than hitting.


2) Ernie Banks. He will ALWAYS be considered one of the great shortstops, but do remember he moved to first base for the last half of his career,

Yes I do.

his batting average was WAY worse than Jeter's, and he had fewer hits in his whole career than Jeter has now, and of course, no rings.

Please, you would rate Banks a worse hitter than Jeter's??? The man was a power hitting shortstop with 2 MVPs. You do not see that every day. I would take him over Jeter any day of the week.

And the rings has more to do with the players Jeter has around him than what Banks had...at best, on his best year, Banks had Billy Williams, maybe Ron Santo and Jenkins pitching...Jeter plays with the best money can buy.

3) As you crunched the numbers and see that Jeter COULD flirt with 4,000 hits, then let's imagine he does it. ANY player who gets 4,000 hits MUST be at least considered to be the best ever at their position.

No, wrong.

I love Pete Rose. My favorite player growing up and still is. I loved how he played and I would track every 200 hit season year after year.

Having said that, and taking into account he was able to play 2B, LF, RF, 3B, 1B etc during his career...He was limited in skill and would be sitting on the bench of an All-time great team....along with Jeter.

Having said that, kudos to Jeter. 4,000 hits is a heck of a milestone...and after Rose I did not forsee a player even flirting with it.

Throw in the batting average, the little bit of power and the championship teams he guided, and he will for SURE be talked about by many as the best shortstop ever.

He would be in the conversation at best.

Add in the fact that Alex Rodriguez came to New York and had to move to third base...man the legend just grows. You are denying that he should be talked about as perhaps the greatest SS ever, and that is exactly my point. I believe he should be talked about in that way (not if his career ended tomorrow, but he's on the path to it). He is BETTER than many even informed baseball people give him credit for and therefore underrated.

We disagree. He has limited power, and he is a good but not exceptional fielder for a position that prizes fielding pretty darn high.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Well, put Jeter over there next to Aaron...and lets move on to our next disagreement...

Ok, more disagreements down the line; that's the fun in baseball discussions...nothing is cut and dried. The sophomoric joke here would be that we both love your mom, but I'm above that.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by stepay

Ok, more disagreements down the line; that's the fun in baseball discussions...nothing is cut and dried. The sophomoric joke here would be that we both love your mom, but I'm above that.

My mom is an excellent cook...everyone loves my mom...

...well argued though.

[Lefty Noob]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Bay and Duke? Your Pirate fanhood is showing...though I too think Bay is underrated because he is not the vocal nut that Manny Ramirez was...he goes in and does a great job quietly.

Pirate fandom might be stretching it, Goth. I'm sick to my stomach about the Morgan and McCouth trades, but that's neither here nor there. I honestly hope they deal Duke to a contender because with better run support and a better team around him, I think he's a future Cy Young winner.