[john255]

he hit it i dont think he did it right like hank thou

[DaSportsGuy]

1.Barry Bonds(757)
2.Hank Aaron(755)

[G.O.D.F.A.T.H.A.]

Barry Cheater (657)

Hank the do it the right way Aaron(755)


Peace.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by G.O.D.F.A.T.H.A.

Barry Cheater (657)

Hank the do it the right way Aaron(755)


Peace.

I'm sure if A-Rod breaks the record, most of you will claim he used steroids too.

[G.O.D.F.A.T.H.A.]

A-Rod didnt take roids. A-Rod took gatorrade. Hank didn't drink gatorrade or use roids.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by G.O.D.F.A.T.H.A.

A-Rod didnt take roids. A-Rod took gatorrade. Hank didn't drink gatorrade or use roids.

now how do you know A-Rod didn't take steroids? And there is no evidence proving Bonds has used steroids, the only thing that has come out is the media's whining and moaning about the Bonds speculation.

If you want to whine and moan about someone, let your wrath out on Bud Selig for allowing players to use steroids as long as he did. If he put a stop to it earlier, maybe we wouldn't question all of these players using steroids? Until something comes out telling me he has used steroids, I won't put a * beside his name. I will put a ? mark beside his name, as we do not know if Bonds used steroids or not.

[Lefty Noob]

Originally Posted by G.O.D.F.A.T.H.A.

A-Rod didnt take roids. A-Rod took gatorrade. Hank didn't drink gatorrade or use roids.

Yeah, um, there's as much concrete, conclusive evidence that A-Rod took steroids as there is that Bonds took them. Which is zero. Yes, it's popular to bash Bonds and point to this, that or the other as "evidence". But the fact is that he has never failed a steroids test. Anything else is circumstantial evidence.

[Mike24]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

Yeah, um, there's as much concrete, conclusive evidence that A-Rod took steroids as there is that Bonds took them. Which is zero. Yes, it's popular to bash Bonds and point to this, that or the other as "evidence". But the fact is that he has never failed a steroids test. Anything else is circumstantial evidence.

[stepay]

People are put away in prison based on circumstantial evidence all the time -- it is an excepted practice. True that Bonds has never failed a drug test, but it is thought he used The Cream and The Clear -- two designer steroids created by BALCO to evade any tests for steriods. His trainer, Greg Anderson, spent a decent amount of time in prison based on illegal steriod activity, and both he and Bonds had ties to BALCO. The sole reason BALCO was in existence was to produce performance-enhancing drugs that couldn't be tested for.

Considering how Bonds began to crush everything in sight beginning at age 36, and from the years of 37, 38, and 39 he hit .370, .341, and .362 respectively, WAY better than he had ever hit before, and considering the ties he has with people in trouble over steriods, it is very reasonable to assume that he did something he shouldn't have. I'm not for putting him in jail without very good evidence (and that CAN be circumstantial evidence), but he's done enough to make me question the validity of his accomplishments. HGH gives a person incredible eyesight. Many say his head is two sizes bigger (not sure how they know though). His muscles are DEFINITELY way bigger, but I concede that some people can do that through working out religiously with weights.

Anyway, he deserves the scrutiny. I find it difficult to believe he didn't do something illegal to get those gaudy numbers in the latter part of his career. Yes he was headed to the Hall of Fame before his supposed cheating occurred. BUT, he wouldn't have passed Hank Aaron -- no way.

[suedon70]

Originally Posted by stepay

Anyway, he deserves the scrutiny. I find it difficult to believe he didn't do something illegal to get those gaudy numbers in the latter part of his career. Yes he was headed to the Hall of Fame before his supposed cheating occurred. BUT, he wouldn't have passed Hank Aaron -- no way.

Completely agree with the entire post, but this paragraph in particular. Why do so many people chose to look the other way on this issue? The vast majority of players' skills diminish as they get older. Bonds skills got better, scary better. That's because roids make you stronger and helps you recover quicker from injury.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

...you guys all fail to point out that Bonds increased power etc happened in the Selig era...and that the league as a whole was in part on par with what Bonds might have done...that is to say, steroids were widely used...his numbers in contrast to this (if indeed he did use them) would be no different than say hitters compared to thier peers in the dead ball era...I do not see a movement to decrease Aarons mark just because he failed to play in a dead ball era...or that the parks were smaller than during the turn of the century etc. Baseball allowed it...it's a record...period.

[stepay]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

...you guys all fail to point out that Bonds increased power etc happened in the Selig era...and that the league as a whole was in part on par with what Bonds might have done...that is to say, steroids were widely used...his numbers in contrast to this (if indeed he did use them) would be no different than say hitters compared to thier peers in the dead ball era...I do not see a movement to decrease Aarons mark just because he failed to play in a dead ball era...or that the parks were smaller than during the turn of the century etc. Baseball allowed it...it's a record...period.

Yes it's a record. It's just one that doesn't have a lot of shine on it. And, lots of people challenged Aaron's record when he passed Babe Ruth. Ruth only played 154 games a season, the mound was higher, scouting wasn't as good, etc. Aaron couldn't control the fact that he played with a livlier ball or that the parks were smaller. Not his fault and not his doing -- also, ALL that was within the rules of the game and the law of the land. While technically baseball didn't have a steriods policy during the time Bonds "supposedly" was taking them, it was illegal for him to do so other than to support a medical condition. Clearly cheating. The fact that others were cheating too, including pitchers, does not diminish his cheating.

Ryan Howard hit 58 home runs last year. Damn! A stout performance like that deserved lots of attention, but because of the guady numbers put up by Bonds and McGwire and Sosa in the last 10 years, 58 home runs is ho-hum. It's a shame. When I was a kid, and a HUGE Reds fan, George Foster hit 52 home runs in 1977. That same year Rod Carew hit .388. Awesome seasons by both. If someone were to hit 52 home runs today, it would mean nothing more than just a halfway decent season; not ALL because of steriods, but a large part of the reason is. Sad.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by stepay

Yes it's a record. It's just one that doesn't have a lot of shine on it. And, lots of people challenged Aaron's record when he passed Babe Ruth. Ruth only played 154 games a season, the mound was higher, scouting wasn't as good, etc. Aaron couldn't control the fact that he played with a livlier ball or that the parks were smaller. Not his fault and not his doing -- also, ALL that was within the rules of the game and the law of the land. While technically baseball didn't have a steriods policy during the time Bonds "supposedly" was taking them, it was illegal for him to do so other than to support a medical condition. Clearly cheating. The fact that others were cheating too, including pitchers, does not diminish his cheating.

Ryan Howard hit 58 home runs last year. Damn! A stout performance like that deserved lots of attention, but because of the guady numbers put up by Bonds and McGwire and Sosa in the last 10 years, 58 home runs is ho-hum. It's a shame. When I was a kid, and a HUGE Reds fan, George Foster hit 52 home runs in 1977. That same year Rod Carew hit .388. Awesome seasons by both. If someone were to hit 52 home runs today, it would mean nothing more than just a halfway decent season; not ALL because of steriods, but a large part of the reason is. Sad.

I suppose you are of the mind of kicking Gaylord Perry out of the sacred Hall of Fame ofr doctoring up a pitch as well?...What?...was that not cheating?...was it not common knowledge when writers voted him in?...Please...Whitey Ford doctored up balls as well...why not kick him out as well?...So what are the proper guielines for cheating?...some is okay, others not?...

I remember Foster as well, I was a Reds fan the same season...in relations to the his era it was great...Bonds in relations to his era is still great...Bonds in relations to Foster?...well that is open for endless debate...hell Ted Williams lost over 4 years to war...Dimaggio did too, Feller...should be adjust their marks...Home Run Baker perhaps?...nope...

It jsut is what it is...a new record that has been accepted by MLB...

[stepay]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

I suppose you are of the mind of kicking Gaylord Perry out of the sacred Hall of Fame ofr doctoring up a pitch as well?...What?...was that not cheating?...was it not common knowledge when writers voted him in?...Please...Whitey Ford doctored up balls as well...why not kick him out as well?...So what are the proper guielines for cheating?...some is okay, others not?...

I remember Foster as well, I was a Reds fan the same season...in relations to the his era it was great...Bonds in relations to his era is still great...Bonds in relations to Foster?...well that is open for endless debate...hell Ted Williams lost over 4 years to war...Dimaggio did too, Feller...should be adjust their marks...Home Run Baker perhaps?...nope...

It jsut is what it is...a new record that has been accepted by MLB...

I didn't say Bonds should be kept out of the Hall of Fame; just that his accomplishments should be looked at with scrutiny. He was well on his way to the Hall of Fame when he joined the Giants. He had already established himself as a player on track for the Hall of Fame. No one believes he was using performance-enhancing drugs then. Bonds belongs in the Hall of Fame. I just believe his final stats are inflated from where they would have been. He would have had 500+ home runs for sure and about a .280 batting average. To go along with three deservedly-won MVPs (the final 4 I think are bogus) that would have been more than enough to get him in on the first ballot. Hank Aaron's HR record would have been untouchable by him without the cheating.

All this cheating by everyone involved has diminished the play of those who have done it the right way. Derek Jeter has an outside shot at 4,000 hits someday as long as he stays healthy -- that's insane. In any event, he'll be WAY over 3,000 hits. As famous and popular as he is, without the steroid use by other players (I don't believe he's ever used) his stats would be even more incredible. Same goes for Vlad Guerrero and Carlos Delgado and Albert Pujols and Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez and Chipper Jones and Andruw Jones and Frank Thomas. Other than recent noise from Canseco about A-Rod, there has been no steriods whispers about any of them. As GREAT as most of them are, Bonds and McGwire and anyone else who has used steriods (possibly Juan Gonzalez) has lessened their accomplishments.

Hopefully the speculation about A-Rod will end with Canseco's second book and hel'll pass Bonds and have the record. If not him then perhaps Pujols.

Anyway, I'd vote for Bonds for the Hall of Fame first ballot. I just would mention his name WAY after Hank Aaron when speaking of the game's best.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by stepay

I didn't say Bonds should be kept out of the Hall of Fame; just that his accomplishments should be looked at with scrutiny. He was well on his way to the Hall of Fame when he joined the Giants. He had already established himself as a player on track for the Hall of Fame. No one believes he was using performance-enhancing drugs then. Bonds belongs in the Hall of Fame. I just believe his final stats are inflated from where they would have been. He would have had 500+ home runs for sure and about a .280 batting average. To go along with three deservedly-won MVPs (the final 4 I think are bogus) that would have been more than enough to get him in on the first ballot. Hank Aaron's HR record would have been untouchable by him without the cheating.

All this cheating by everyone involved has diminished the play of those who have done it the right way. Derek Jeter has an outside shot at 4,000 hits someday as long as he stays healthy -- that's insane. In any event, he'll be WAY over 3,000 hits. As famous and popular as he is, without the steroid use by other players (I don't believe he's ever used) his stats would be even more incredible. Same goes for Vlad Guerrero and Carlos Delgado and Albert Pujols and Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez and Chipper Jones and Andruw Jones and Frank Thomas. Other than recent noise from Canseco about A-Rod, there has been no steriods whispers about any of them. As GREAT as most of them are, Bonds and McGwire and anyone else who has used steriods (possibly Juan Gonzalez) has lessened their accomplishments.

Hopefully the speculation about A-Rod will end with Canseco's second book and hel'll pass Bonds and have the record. If not him then perhaps Pujols.

Anyway, I'd vote for Bonds for the Hall of Fame first ballot. I just would mention his name WAY after Hank Aaron when speaking of the game's best.

They are probably about equal...Bonds a bit faster...but otherwise probably about the same...Aaron would have had a lot more homers had he not been a line-drive hitter...a little more loft would not have hurtthe man.