[Bryan88]

Originally Posted by Dusty

With the game on the line there's no deadlier hitter than Manny Ramirez. I say this as a Yankee fan as I watched him destroy us with his bat many many times. Just the sight of him at the plate scares me quite frankly.

Unfortunately I think Manny is starting to fall off, look at his numbers the last two years. He is Slugging almost .100 points off his career average and he is not getting on base like he use to. He was incredible in his heyday though.

Manny Ramirez Statistics - Baseball-Reference.com

[Geechee843]

gotta be manny. stats are meaningless. manny is an rbi machine and goes deep like clockwork

[Bryan88]

Originally Posted by Geechee843

gotta be manny. stats are meaningless. manny is an rbi machine and goes deep like clockwork

Stats are facts. Honestly though I think Manny is beginning to slow down. Don't take that to mean he isn't good anymore, his numbers just used to be otherworldly. His career OPS+ is 154, the last two years they have been 126 and 128. He is one of my favorite players of all time.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Wow, I remember when this thread went up in 2006...still kicking it around huh?...Ramirez is good or was great...but is he really in the company of some of the other guys discussed in the thread?...

[Geechee843]

as i recall he has jewelry. the cooler has none and pujoles has one ring. manny hits the big homers and rbi's in the clutch. he plays "otherworldly" in big games. if we're gonna talk stats, let's talk stats that count : post-season stats.

manny

24 post-season homeruns
64 postseason rbi
59 post-season bb
95 post-season hits
.269 post-season batting average


pujoles

13 post-season homeruns
35 post-season rbi
33 post-season bb
61 post-season hits
.323 post-season batting average (but less at-bats)

the cooler (a-rod)

7 post-season homeruns
17 post-season rbi
17 post-season bb
41 post-season hits
.279 post-season batting average

those the kind of facts you were referring to?

[Lefty Noob]

So maybe those numbers make Manny a great clutch player.
But is he really comparable to some of the great pure hitters, like Gwynn or Teddy Ballgame?

[azrael492]

This seems to be an arguement over run producing. In my mind, the best hitter in baseball is Ichiro.

[Bryan88]

Originally Posted by azrael492

This seems to be an arguement over run producing. In my mind, the best hitter in baseball is Ichiro.

Actually their is a stat that quantifies who the best hitter in baseball is in terms of run's. It is called Runs Created, here is a little about it;

RC - Runs Created - A runs estimator created by Bill James. A runs estimator attempts to quantify the entire contribution of a player's statistics to a team's total runs scored. It typically involves some positive value for things like hits, walks, steals, home runs, etc. and negative values for outs, caught stealing and GIDP.

Ichiro's three year totals are 108, 118, 121 (2005, 06, 07). For comparison A-Rod totals are 120, 121, 166 (led the league). Albert Pujols totals are 156, 151, 132. I am going to include Manny, here are his totals 126, 126, 91.

[Bryan88]

Originally Posted by Geechee843

as i recall he has jewelry. the cooler has none and pujoles has one ring. manny hits the big homers and rbi's in the clutch. he plays "otherworldly" in big games. if we're gonna talk stats, let's talk stats that count : post-season stats.

manny

24 post-season homeruns
64 postseason rbi
59 post-season bb
95 post-season hits
.269 post-season batting average


pujoles

13 post-season homeruns
35 post-season rbi
33 post-season bb
61 post-season hits
.323 post-season batting average (but less at-bats)

the cooler (a-rod)

7 post-season homeruns
17 post-season rbi
17 post-season bb
41 post-season hits
.279 post-season batting average

those the kind of facts you were referring to?

Pujols career post-season line- .323 .429 .593
Manny's career post-season line- .269 .376 .513
A-Rod's carrer post-season line- .279 .361 .483

I would take Pujols 10 out of 10 times. I have one question, if Manny is so "clutch" in the postseason, why is his career post-season line worse than his career regular season line of .312 .408 .590?
By the way, BA or HR's or RBI's are not the most important tool for measuring how good a player is, the most important stat is OBP followed by SLG%. Obviously you trend toward the old-school, which is fine and it's how the game has been played and viewed for over a hundred years and many in the game today still think this way. I am not old-school, instead I believe in using saber-metrics to view the game.

If any of you interested there is a great book called "Baseball Between the Numbers: Why Everything You Know About the Game Is Wrong", it is a great read and it changed how I viewed the game.

PS- I am not saying my way is the right way and you are all wrong, just trying to show you a different way of evaluating the game.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

So maybe those numbers make Manny a great clutch player.
But is he really comparable to some of the great pure hitters, like Gwynn or Teddy Ballgame?

Well if Manny is declining like Bryan says and we take Manny Ramirez in his heyday say like 4 or 5 years ago? Yeah i'd put him up there with Brett, Boggs, Dawson and the greats. Manny Ramirez is the best right handed clutch hitter of all times and one of baseballs greatest RBI machines.

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Wow, I remember when this thread went up in 2006...still kicking it around huh?...Ramirez is good or was great...but is he really in the company of some of the other guys discussed in the thread?...

In Manny's heyday I have to say yes crazy as i'm sure people will think me. And the NY Yankees are my favorite team so you know this is coming from an unbiased opinion, or perhaps biased since Ramirez annihilates Yankee pitching and playoff dreams!

[Geechee843]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

So maybe those numbers make Manny a great clutch player.
But is he really comparable to some of the great pure hitters, like Gwynn or Teddy Ballgame?

of course not. i thought this was about the best active hitter. personally, i think the best hitter of all time was the hammer, then the babe, then ted.

no worries bryan88. no animosity here. its only a discussion forum.

but how does manny's BA make him worse when that;s obviously a result of him having more postseason at bats ?

and how are hits rbi's and homeruns irrelavant when that's the main reason for stepping up to the plate- to drive in runs and fill the scoreboard/trophy case and not the stat sheet.

wat about prince fielder?

he's not a media darling but what about mark teixeira ? (sp?)

[Bryan88]

Originally Posted by Geechee843

but how does manny's BA make him worse when that;s obviously a result of him having more postseason at bats ?

and how are hits rbi's and homeruns irrelavant when that's the main reason for stepping up to the plate- to drive in runs and fill the scoreboard/trophy case and not the stat sheet.

I never said that RBI's or HR's are irrelevant, and certainly not hits, I was just saying that in determining a players offensive prowess the two most important statistics to look at are OBP and SLG. RBI's are more a result of where a player bats in a lineup and are completely dependent on the situation, thus it is hard to use that as a true evaluator because it is so varied. HR's and hits are taken into account in SLG and OBP, so obviously they are important.
More at-bats do not excuse a player from having worse averages (BA, OBP, SLG) then a player with less at-bats. They are averages and should theoretically carry no matter how many at-bats. Now I would agree if Pujols' averages were way beyond his career numbers, but look at them.

• career regular season line- .332 .423 .619
• career post-season line- .323 .429 .593

They are right on, or really close, with his career numbers. So I can make a very valid argument that those numbers would stay relatively the same if he had the same amount of at-bats as Manny. As much as it pains this Cub fan to say, Albert Pujols is the best hitter in baseball right now.

[Geechee843]

rbi's are a judge of a player's poise. it may seem easy to knock in teh guys on base but it's not. it's just as easy to realize that you can drive in the game wining run in a postseason series and choke it all away.

i just dont understand how an approximate number can mean more than and make up for intangible things done in clutch situations, things that dont show up on the stat sheet. not only is manny clutch but he has a significantly better pitch identification system.

[azrael492]

Originally Posted by Bryan88

Actually their is a stat that quantifies who the best hitter in baseball is in terms of run's. It is called Runs Created, here is a little about it;



Ichiro's three year totals are 108, 118, 121 (2005, 06, 07). For comparison A-Rod totals are 120, 121, 166 (led the league). Albert Pujols totals are 156, 151, 132. I am going to include Manny, here are his totals 126, 126, 91.

I see what you are getting at now. In these terms, yes, I would take ARod or Pujols, but if it is just putting wood on the ball Ichiro is the best I have seen in a long time.