[vincesanity82]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

My friend, you have to separate feelings from the issue at hand...

"Our morals” or those of this country where basically founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs...

Wisely the founding fathers decided not to subscribe to any one religion and decided to separate state and church...but mostly as to not favor any one view...

Our morals then became laws based on commonality. For example "murder" is basically accepted under most views as being wrong, so we formed a law around that common moral... (Read up on Thomas Jefferson, etc with regards to what common morals were accepted at the start of it all)

...With views on which there is currently a wide spectrum of believes (like abortion and issues of sexual orientation etc) the morals are not one of commonality (currently) and the laws varied widely...as do people's views...

In the case of dogs being of a higher nature than a pig or deer with regards to this thread, it is only your opinion that is offered, nothing more...and not a commonality of a moral (go talk to PETA about animals and have them agree with a Hunter in rural Georgia on what the moral here is)...

Personally, I am not an animal person, but by the same token I do not hurt any animals...I would not do what Vick is accused of doing, neither would I have a dog sleep at my feet for that matter...

My personal feelings aside, I do not see how it is okay to kill one animal in a violent way and not another...granted population control plays a role in the killing of deers etc...But I have seen pigs get killed by having a long knife shoved up their snout (I had a pig farmer uncle)...how is that any better or worse than a dog fight honestly?...and when we break a horse's leg by racing him too hard for sport, is it any more humane to kill him? …Why?...we drove him to it for sport didn't we?

Thus there is no universal moral that governs all of what we do with animals...at best we rely on laws that dictate a bit of common sense...

Now, my only point was, you guys are picking on someone who brought up "deer hunting as sport" and bashing her for saying "it's the same in a way"...and in a way she is right...the biggest difference between the two is that a state license one and bans the other...if not, show me the universally accepted moral that exalts one while condemning the other...

your right in the fact that its my opinion,I dont advocate abusing animals, especially dogs, I do however think hunting deer is not abuse, and thats my opinion, either way they made it a law that dogfighting is not acceptable in the U.S, and vick broke it, he lied about it, the feds have the evidence, he will be punished..and I dont feel sorry him..

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by vincesanity82

your right in the fact that its my opinion,I dont advocate abusing animals, especially dogs, I do however think hunting deer is not abuse, and thats my opinion, either way they made it a law that dogfighting is not acceptable in the U.S, and vick broke it, he lied about it, the feds have the evidence, he will be punished..and I dont feel sorry him..

"Alledgedly" broke it...if and when he is convicted you can condemn him...right now he is innocent and the Feds have not had their day in court...

As to how you feel about it, you can if you wish, "not feel sorry for him"...

By the way, for the record, how is hunting for sport (as opposed to need) any different?...the deer don't exactly have a say or shoots back...how is dog fighting any less cruel than to shoot him with an arrow off a cross bow and watch him limp off, suffer and die?...and if say, we ate the dogs in a stew afterwards, would it make a difference?

[EmpireWF]

First, Vick has obviously not been found guilty of anything in a court of law. However, it does look like the Feds have a mountain of evidence that puts Vick in complete control over the horrific activities that took place inside that home.

With that said, looking at it from a football perspective, Arthur Blank is in a tricky spot. He can't cut Vick (at least not until the legal process is concluded) but the media hoopla this will bring on the organization isn't good. I can see the Falcons wanting Vick to take a leave of absence until he gets his legal matters handled.

Arthur Blank is a businessman and he must look after his bread and butter (Home Depot I think I heard). If this matter in any way effects either of his franchises, he'll have to act out.


As for the case, if any of it is proven to be true...wow, I can't understand what entertainment/excitement factor can be involved in such inhumane brutality.

[vincesanity82]

Originally Posted by EmpireWF

hey vince, you mind removing those pics. They're not exactly something I feel like seeing coming to the boards. Thanks....

First, Vick has obviously not been found guilty of anything in a court of law. However, it does look like the Feds have a mountain of evidence that puts Vick in complete control over the horrific activities that took place inside that home.

With that said, looking at it from a football perspective, Arthur Blank is in a tricky spot. He can't cut Vick (at least not until the legal process is concluded) but the media hoopla this will bring on the organization isn't good. I can see the Falcons wanting Vick to take a leave of absence until he gets his legal matters handled.

Arthur Blank is a businessman and he must look after his bread and butter (Home Depot I think I heard). If this matter in any way effects either of his franchises, he'll have to act out.


As for the case, if any of it is proven to be true...wow, I can't understand what entertainment/excitement factor can be involved in such inhumane brutality.

About eight young dogs were put to death at the Surry County home after they were found not ready to fight in April 2007, the indictment said. They were killed "by hanging, drowning and/or slamming at least one dog's body to the ground." "Some of the grisly details in these filings shocked even me, and I'm a person who faces this stuff every day," Goodwin said.


"I was surprised to see that they were killing dogs by hanging them, and one dog was killed by slamming it to the ground. Those are extremely violent methods of execution — they're unnecessary and just sick." Purses for the fights ranged from hundreds of dollars to the thousands, and participants and spectators often placed side bets on the outcome, according to the indictment.

Rocky Mountain News - Denver and Colorado's reliable source for breaking news, sports and entertainment: Broncos & NFL


how people can get off on this beyond me aswell empire..

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by vincesanity82

About eight young dogs were put to death at the Surry County home after they were found not ready to fight in April 2007, the indictment said. They were killed "by hanging, drowning and/or slamming at least one dog's body to the ground." "Some of the grisly details in these filings shocked even me, and I'm a person who faces this stuff every day," Goodwin said.


"I was surprised to see that they were killing dogs by hanging them, and one dog was killed by slamming it to the ground. Those are extremely violent methods of execution — they're unnecessary and just sick." Purses for the fights ranged from hundreds of dollars to the thousands, and participants and spectators often placed side bets on the outcome, according to the indictment.

Rocky Mountain News - Denver and Colorado's reliable source for breaking news, sports and entertainment: Broncos & NFL


how people can get off on this beyond me aswell empire..

Vince buddy, just cause you hunt does not mean that shooting is a humane way of killing an animal...for example how many states use a firing squad for execution?...last I heard it was Utah...

...and how the heck do you know how much a deer does or does not suffer? ...you can be a lousy shot and the deer could suffer for hours...should you be fine for making him suffer cause you can't shoot straight?

Or heck, how about Bull Fighting?...totally legal in some parts of the world...any better than Vick?...nope!...what's the difference?...the culture where it's at allows it...plain and simple...society has decided where it wants to draw the line...nothing more or less...

My point still is, that there is no universal set of accepted morals for this...

So, let's see, if Vick or anyone else, made jerky out of the dogs and shot them instead of slammed them, it would be better, because it would be more like shooting a deer?

To a degree "animal cruelty" is subjective...now I am not excusing whatever went on in Virginia...but I am also not going to okay bashing people that hold a different opinion then you or Simon and compare it to shooting a deer...

Look, you guys are entitled to your opinion, but the door is wide open for someone to say, "Hey, killing Bambi is about the same"...and in a lot of ways, they would have a point as well...they jsut view it from a different moral perspective...

[EmpireWF]

What does "killing bambi" have to do with Michael Vick and his impending trial?

Whomever the government gets to turn states evidence and offer up Vick, I think unless he can plead down, there's a good chance he will be going away for a long time.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by EmpireWF

What does "killing bambi" have to do with Michael Vick and his impending trial?

Whomever the government gets to turn states evidence and offer up Vick, I think unless he can plead down, there's a good chance he will be going away for a long time.

Well, it came up in the thread...someone said, killing a deer is not too much different than dog abuse...the statement met with flak from Simon and Vincent...I, not being a hunter, think in some ways the comparison has some merit...

If you follow the thread...we went on a tangent on the subject of a "universal moral" that governs the killing of animals...I say there isn't one...it's a cultural thing...It is less a question of a universal right or wrong and more of a definition of society that regulates the killing of an animal...in Virginia this is against the law...some place in Asia it may be legal...some people would be okay killing bambi, and others...not so much...

as such it is relevant to the theme here...

It amazes me that we run countless threads on a criminal act because it includes an NFL player (or pro wrestler), however irrelevant to the world of sports it may be...but if the topic goes off the road...which of course it will in a hurry, we are all shocked by that as well...come on guys, the minute we post this stuff we should have a feeling as to where we will end up...

[vincesanity82]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Vince buddy, just cause you hunt does not mean that shooting is a humane way of killing an animal...for example how many states use a firing squad for execution?...last I heard it was Utah...

...and how the heck do you know how much a deer does or does not suffer? ...you can be a lousy shot and the deer could suffer for hours...should you be fine for making him suffer cause you can't shoot straight?

Or heck, how about Bull Fighting?...totally legal in some parts of the world...any better than Vick?...nope!...what's the difference?...the culture where it's at allows it...plain and simple...society has decided where it wants to draw the line...nothing more or less...

My point still is, that there is no universal set of accepted morals for this...

So, let's see, if Vick or anyone else, made jerky out of the dogs and shot them instead of slammed them, it would be better, because it would be more like shooting a deer?

To a degree "animal cruelty" is subjective...now I am not excusing whatever went on in Virginia...but I am also not going to okay bashing people that hold a different opinion then you or Simon and compare it to shooting a deer...

Look, you guys are entitled to your opinion, but the door is wide open for someone to say, "Hey, killing Bambi is about the same"...and in a lot of ways, they would have a point as well...they jsut view it from a different moral perspective...

a moral perspective that most of the U.S doesnt agree with, have you turned on the tv? I havent seen, heard, or read anything where one person has said that theres nothing wrong with dogfighting besides you..why is that you think? maybe because its wrong and not accepted maybe?? surely theres other people out there who agree that hanging, electricuting, slamming dogs on the ground is super cool and bunches of swell fun..

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by vincesanity82

a moral perspective that most of the U.S doesnt agree with, have you turned on the tv? I havent seen, heard, or read anything where one person has said that theres nothing wrong with dogfighting besides you..why is that you think? maybe because its wrong and not accepted maybe?? surely theres other people out there who agree that hanging, electricuting, slamming dogs on the ground is super cool and bunches of swell fun..

Dude...show me where I have said that killing dogs was okay...show me!

I have said simply, that what constitute abuse is not a universal moral...what part are you misunderstanding?...Go to freakin Spain and go to a bull fight...then tell the freakin Spaniards that they are immoral for it...just a different society...

Are you sure you are reading what I write?...doesn't seem that way to me...

I also said some people may, in the absence of a universal moral, believe that shooting a deer is just as wrong...which is also true...

You got to seperate your feeling from what is being said in the thread...

As for me, I happen to stop my freakin car to save a dog in a freakin rain storm when he got hit by a car...I took him the vet...and spend the freakin night with him...and found it's freakin owner the next day...no one else that I saw was stopping their freakin car...so who the heck are you talking about Vince???? So come again and tell me how I think it's oaky to kill a dog???...

I also stop my freakin car every time there is a turtle crossing the road and I pick him up and deliver him to safety...so surely you are not talking about me...

Follow the freakin thread will ya....

now, having said all that, yes Vincesanity some people have a different moral prespective than you on the matter when it comes to animals...some may even wait for Vick to be convicted in a court of law...and either or both are welcome to express their opinion on this thread...just like you or me...

[bears9]

im a dog lover but back on the topic Pacman got a year for tarnishing the luege's image.You guys are saying lets wait and see.But how is fighting, strangling, drowning, eletricutig,and hanging dogs not tarnish the luege image?

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by bears9

im a dog lover but back on the topic Pacman got a year for tarnishing the luege's image.You guys are saying lets wait and see.But how is fighting, strangling, drowning, eletricutig,and hanging dogs not tarnish the luege image?

No difference...the league should do the same to Vick...guilty or not, he it looks like whatever level of involvement he has has tarnished the image of the league...I would suspend him...

[bears9]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

No difference...the league should do the same to Vick...guilty or not, he it looks like whatever level of involvement he has has tarnished the image of the league...I would suspend him...

i agree My Dog i can say is my best friend cant picture myself or anyelse doing what did he is a dirty rotten person who i'd love beat the crap out of right now

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

..the statement met with flak from Simon and Vincent.....

easy my friend, if you read carefully you will see my response actually agrees with you ....... all i said was the only difference between the 2 is that deer hunting is legal

as for the morality ..... i agree its all subjective ...... in some countries you are stoned to death for being gay or having the wrong religion ....... i spent a year in South Korea where they in fact do eat dogs, i never really may a stink about it even though i grew up always having a dog as a pet

the big issue i have here is that it is a law ...... plain and simple .... if you dont like the law, work to change it, until then obey it or suffer the consequences

3 people were indicted along with Vick .... im fairly sure atleast one of them will roll and Mike will do serious (2 yrs or more) time

it was stated today on ESPN Radio that 90% of these cases are settled out of court and 95% of the remaining cases are won by the government ........ doesnt bode well for Vick

[vincesanity82]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

Dude...show me where I have said that killing dogs was okay...show me!

I have said simply, that what constitute abuse is not a universal moral...what part are you misunderstanding?...Go to freakin Spain and go to a bull fight...then tell the freakin Spaniards that they are immoral for it...just a different society...

Are you sure you are reading what I write?...doesn't seem that way to me...

I also said some people may, in the absence of a universal moral, believe that shooting a deer is just as wrong...which is also true...

You got to seperate your feeling from what is being said in the thread...

As for me, I happen to stop my freakin car to save a dog in a freakin rain storm when he got hit by a car...I took him the vet...and spend the freakin night with him...and found it's freakin owner the next day...no one else that I saw was stopping their freakin car...so who the heck are you talking about Vince???? So come again and tell me how I think it's oaky to kill a dog???...

I also stop my freakin car every time there is a turtle crossing the road and I pick him up and deliver him to safety...so surely you are not talking about me...

Follow the freakin thread will ya....

now, having said all that, yes Vincesanity some people have a different moral prespective than you on the matter when it comes to animals...some may even wait for Vick to be convicted in a court of law...and either or both are welcome to express their opinion on this thread...just like you or me...

I mustve not read it right man, I wasnt being personal about it goth, sometimes im not looking outside the box, my main complaint wasnt really about that but the fact that vick should be suspended like pac was, I also may have had male pms earlier it happends from time to time..

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by vincesanity82

I mustve not read it right man, I wasnt being personal about it goth, sometimes im not looking outside the box, my main complaint wasnt really about that but the fact that vick should be suspended like pac was, I also may have had male pms earlier it happends from time to time..

Happens to me as well man...for the record, I would at the very least suspend Vick from the NFL...let him and the Feds sort it out...though the Falcons have put themselves in a hard place...