[fredthefactor]

First of all 80 to 90% of the NFL and It's fan base owe my man Vick a apology.
Why an apology you may ask?
Well, the reason being:#1 The minute the report was aired every superstar hater came out of the wood work and convicted the man with out mercy
#2 It only proves my point that we as football fans eat every drop of the trash these corupt comentators.try and feed us on these talk shows .
#3 From day one the media and fans BLK and WHT has been "Player Hateing this" Superstar's skills" as a history changing Quaterback.
Know matter who or what record he surpases In his "Hall of fame career"?he's never going to live up to the bar set by the Hater's.
#4 It's not Vick's fault that the very system that's makeing billion's off his Image had to break the ol' boy off 136 million dollars with that Fat 26 million dollar signing bonus.
So In conclusion I will hold all of the true "Hater's" acountable for Defamation of character of this mondern day Robin Hood I say" DOWN WITH THOSE BIGGIE SIZE GLASS'S OF HATER AID " and admit you were wrong.
THE FACTOR!

[Lefty Noob]

Yeah, like so many instances before, people jumped the gun and assumed the worst-case scenario, though some will be quick to point out how much this looks like a cover-up with the conveniently erased tape and the fact that no one has come forward to say exactly what the pot-like substance actually was supposed to be, or why Vick had it hidden in a water-bottle label.

Now let's talk about this supposed Superstar's "Hall of Fame" career, shall we? He has a career passer rating of 75.7 and a 71-to-52 TD-to-INT ratio. Yes, he's the only QB in NFL history to rush for 1,000 yards, and he may well be the best running QB the league has ever seen. In six seasons, the Falcons have only made the playoffs twice, going 2-2, and Vick played extremely poorly in those two losses. He's never thrown for more than 3,000 yards in a season and his decision making is terrible. People love to criticize his receivers, but the fact is that the receivers have changed over the years and Vick's lack of ability to take something off his throws for the short, easy passes has not.

A great QB is like a great point guard -- he needs to elevate the game of the guys around him. Michael Vick does not, and until he does, he'll never be accepted as a great QB. Sure, he's a great athlete. But he's Kobe Bryant in a league where you need a Steve Nash at the position to succeed.

[ThePundit]

I don't hate Vick. I just don't think he's that good. Now as I have said in this forum before, it's not totally his fault. Jim Mora totally misused him and wasted his prime years, trying to get him to be a West Coast passer instead of having a more vertical passing game. If he had been allowed to play the way that best suits him, he may have very well been a Hall of Famer. But you know about if....

[fredthefactor]

Originally Posted by ThePundit

I don't hate Vick. I just don't think he's that good. Now as I have said in this forum before, it's not totally his fault. Jim Mora totally misused him and wasted his prime years, trying to get him to be a West Coast passer instead of having a more vertical passing game. If he had been allowed to play the way that best suits him, he may have very well been a Hall of Famer. But you know about if....

Look here dude correct me If I'm wrong but have I ever had to Fred Fact you?.
If not let me break you on In / In the first place I'll dare you to disrespect this living legend .
Look It's not to late for you my friend you can applogize to me "The best Vick fan" ever or try to catch up with Vick
How ever you decide To do It It has to be done my friend.
How can you explaine the Historical jump in football rateing and video game sales since the "Vick" hopped on the seen.
They had games when "The Elway.was running the show".
How about mareno?
The Factor
The Vick's the best my man so me a favor and take shoes off when he comes In tha House .

[fredthefactor]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

Yeah, like so many instances before, people jumped the gun and assumed the worst-case scenario, though some will be quick to point out how much this looks like a cover-up with the conveniently erased tape and the fact that no one has come forward to say exactly what the pot-like substance actually was supposed to be, or why Vick had it hidden in a water-bottle label.

Now let's talk about this supposed Superstar's "Hall of Fame" career, shall we? He has a career passer rating of 75.7 and a 71-to-52 TD-to-INT ratio. Yes, he's the only QB in NFL history to rush for 1,000 yards, and he may well be the best running QB the league has ever seen. In six seasons, the Falcons have only made the playoffs twice, going 2-2, and Vick played extremely poorly in those two losses. He's never thrown for more than 3,000 yards in a season and his decision making is terrible. People love to criticize his receivers, but the fact is that the receivers have changed over the years and Vick's lack of ability to take something off his throws for the short, easy passes has not.

A great QB is like a great point guard -- he needs to elevate the game of the guys around him. Michael Vick does not, and until he does, he'll never be accepted as a great QB. Sure, he's a great athlete. But he's Kobe Bryant in a league where you need a Steve Nash at the position to succeed.

Sir you should know in my short time In this room I can't pass that up?
Thats what Im saying like kobe he is "TOP NOTCH" nobody's above the Vick.
But instead of a steve nash type player all he needsIs myother"mellow"the
Best receirver in the game "TO".

[EmpireWF]

I frankly don't care whether Vick smokes pot or whatever. I'm sure a good number of players in the NFL do things perhaps worse.

Anyway, I'm sick of all the Vick loving that continues to exist. What has he done? The only thing I can think of is being the first visiting QB to ever win at Lambeau Field in the playoffs. Other than that, he's been average at best.

Let's see what he can do under the new coach's system.

[Lefty Noob]

Originally Posted by fredthefactor

Sir you should know in my short time In this room I can't pass that up?
Thats what Im saying like kobe he is "TOP NOTCH" nobody's above the Vick.
But instead of a steve nash type player all he needsIs myother"mellow"the
Best receirver in the game "TO".

Ah, but Kobe is deemed as a selfish player, more interested in scoring points than working with Shaq and within a system to succeed as a team. Vick is getting his money, his rushing yards, and his glory. But to get the Falcons to the next level, he needs to make better decisions, learn how to throw a more catchable short pass, and play within an offense better. Until he does so, he'll always wear the "great athlete, lousy quarterback" tag.

And Vick to T.O.? A guy who throws an uncatchable short pass with the guy who lead the league in dropped passes this season? That would be a terrible marriage. At least this year, Owens pulled in 13 touchdowns. He wouldn't crack 10 if Michael Vick was his QB, and his dropped passes would rise.

[Notorious C.L.E.]

Why the unfiltered hatred of Michael Vick? Is he the best quarterback in the NFL? Absolutely not. But, he is certainly better than average and is a top ten quarterback in the league today.

I am still waiting for someone to give me ten quarterbacks that are better...

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by fredthefactor

First of all 80 to 90% of the NFL and It's fan base owe my man Vick a apology.

Vick owes me an apology for being a crappy QB

Vick owes Atlanta fans an apology for giving them the finger and being a crappy QB

Vick owes Shcaub an apology for being a crappy QB and making him sit on the bench

Vick owes his coaches an apology for being a crappy QB

Vick owes his owner an apology for wasting money on him and being a crappy QB

Vick owes the security personnel at the Miami Airport an apology for being an ass with a fake water bottle and for being a crappy QB

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

I am still waiting for someone to give me ten quarterbacks that are better...

Tom Brady.....Peyton Manning.....Jeff Garcia....Donovan McNabb....Tony Romo.....Steve McNair.....Damon Huard.....Drew Brees......Carson Palmer.....Matt Hasselback......Ben Roethlisberger......Vince Young......Phillip Rivers......Matt Leinart

there's 14.........need more ?

this past season Vick was 20th in QB Rating......22nd in passing yards......31st in Completion % .......22nd in Yards Per Attempt......35th in Longest Completion......27th with 45 Sacks.......29th with 303 Sack Yards Lost

yeah...........Vick is the essence of greatness

there are your Facts Fred

you have been simonized

[Lefty Noob]

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

I am still waiting for someone to give me ten quarterbacks that are better...

Wait no longer.

First, the obvious trio of Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Carson Palmer. Under then I'd place, in no particular order, Phillip Rivers, Donovan McNabb, Marc Bulger, Drew Brees, Matt Hasselbeck, Steve McNair, and Huard/Green, depending upon who's starting for K.C. Young guys I think should be rated ahead of Vick and will prove so this year include Tony Romo, Matt Leinart and Vince Young. Jury's still out on Leftwich/Garrard, David Carr, Alex Smith, Chad Pennington and Jake Delhomme.

I know Carr and Smith will raise some eyebrows, but if you take them, or Matt Schaub, Garrard, or Damon Huard, maybe even Seneca Wallace, and name them the starting QB of the Atlanta Falcons, I think they put up better passing numbers and help the team win more games than Vick. Just my opinion, of course. In terms of pure statistics, there are 19 NFL quarterbacks who had better passer ratings in 2006, and 30 that had better completion percentages, including the likes of the woeful Andrew Walter and Bruce Gradkowski. In fact, among quarterbacks who played at least 10 games last season, his completion percentage was the WORST in the league.

[Lefty Noob]

Originally Posted by simple simon

yeah...........Vick is the essence of greatness

Heh... looks you were a little faster on the draw than me, simon! Good stuff, though!

[Notorious C.L.E.]

Originally Posted by simple simon

Tom Brady.....Peyton Manning.....Jeff Garcia....Donovan McNabb....Tony Romo.....Steve McNair.....Damon Huard.....Drew Brees......Carson Palmer.....Matt Hasselback......Ben Roethlisberger......Vince Young......Phillip Rivers......Matt Leinart

there's 14.........need more ?

this past season Vick was 20th in QB Rating......22nd in passing yards......31st in Completion % .......22nd in Yards Per Attempt......35th in Longest Completion......27th with 45 Sacks.......29th with 303 Sack Yards Lost

yeah...........Vick is the essence of greatness

there are your Facts Fred

you have been simonized

Yes, I do need more because the fact that you put some of those guys over Vick is laughable.

Tom Brady - Yes.

Peyton Manning - Yes.

Jeff Garcia - Garcia doesn't come close to Vick. He plays well this season and all of the sudden he is something again. Frankly, I don't know why it shocked anyone. He was back in the West Coast Offense, which masks his weaknesses pretty efficiently. You want bad numbers? How about Jeff Garcia outside the WCO: 246 completions on 425 attempts for 2668 yards with 13 TD and 15 INT in 18 games. Garcia can't hold a candle to Vick.

Donovan McNabb - Yes.

Tony Romo - Are you serious? You bash Vick for not proving anything, but what has Romo proven? The answer is nothing. He strung a couple of good games together, but had his fair share of struggles down the stretch. In no way can you say he is better than Vick off such a small sample.

Steve McNair - Did you watch Steve McNair this season? He managed the game and was awful when he was really forced to pass. McNair has always been ridiculously overrated because the media paints him as a warrior. He had zero business sharing the MVP the year he won it and is nothing more than a glorified game manager now.

Damon Huard - He played well while he was in for Green, but are you really insinuating that a career backup is better than Vick? His numbers before this year: 170 completions of 288 attempts for 1691 with 9 touchdowns and 8 interceptions. Don't think so.

Drew Brees - Yes.

Matt Hasselback - Yes.

Ben Roethlisberger - Maybe. Roethlisberger has been overrated since the Steelers went 15-1. Give him a good ground game with a smashmouth defense and he looks All-Pro. But, his career shows that he is less effective when he has to throw more. It'll be interesting to see him next season.

Vince Young - No. Young is becoming mega-overrated. He won games with solely his legs this year. The guy has positively marginal throwing abilities. We saw the same exact thing from Michael Vick. He tore defenses up with his legs, everyone hopped on the bandwagon. He was forced to pass, everyone hopped off the bandwagon.

Philip Rivers - Maybe. I am hesitant to annoit Rivers to anything because, frankly, he has the best running back in football, the best tight end in football, and one of the best defenses in football.

Matt Leinart - No. In time, I think he'll be better than Vick. But right now, he is not better than him. He hasn't proven a thing with far superior offensive weapons.

------------------------------------------------------------------

I noticed you failed to mention that he finished in the top ten of touchdowns, only four behind the best quarterback in the NFL in Tom Brady. But, quite frankly, I don't think you can quanitify Michael Vick with statistics. He is such a rare player that you really have to watch him on the field. If you go by statistics, of course the guy is going to look bad. He has one receiver worth anything. But if you ever watched him on the field, you wouldn't be telling me that Damon Huard is better than Vick.

[Notorious C.L.E.]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

Wait no longer.

First, the obvious trio of Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Carson Palmer. Under then I'd place, in no particular order, Phillip Rivers, Donovan McNabb, Marc Bulger, Drew Brees, Matt Hasselbeck, Steve McNair, and Huard/Green, depending upon who's starting for K.C. Young guys I think should be rated ahead of Vick and will prove so this year include Tony Romo, Matt Leinart and Vince Young. Jury's still out on Leftwich/Garrard, David Carr, Alex Smith, Chad Pennington and Jake Delhomme.

I know Carr and Smith will raise some eyebrows, but if you take them, or Matt Schaub, Garrard, or Damon Huard, maybe even Seneca Wallace, and name them the starting QB of the Atlanta Falcons, I think they put up better passing numbers and help the team win more games than Vick. Just my opinion, of course. In terms of pure statistics, there are 19 NFL quarterbacks who had better passer ratings in 2006, and 30 that had better completion percentages, including the likes of the woeful Andrew Walter and Bruce Gradkowski. In fact, among quarterbacks who played at least 10 games last season, his completion percentage was the WORST in the league.

Peyton Manning - Yes.

Tom Brady - Yes.

Carson Palmer - Yes.

Phillip Rivers - Maybe. See above.

Donovan McNabb - Yes.

Marc Bulger - Yes. The most underrated quarterback in the NFL.

Drew Brees - Yes.

Matt Hasselbeck - Yes.

Steve McNair - No. See above.

Damon Huard - No. See above.

Trent Green - Probably. I want to see if he rebounds from a poor 2006 season. However, they are neck-and-neck.

Tony Romo - No. See above.

Matt Leinart - No. See above.

Vince Young - No. See above.

Byron Leftwich - Definitely maybe. I think the lack of a structured scheme in Jacksonville hurts him. His talent is undeniable.

David Garrard - No. Ideal backup, good spot starter, below average long-term solution.

David Carr - No. His confidence is absolutely shot. He is gunshy to the maximum and his dumpoffs don't let the offense get in any kind of rhythm.

Alex Smith - No. He improved last year, but he was still wildly inconsistent and shouldn't be mentioned with Vick yet.

Chad Pennington - No. He was one heck of a leader this year, but he was an average quarterback.

Jake Delhomme - No. I used to be on his bandwagon as a gamer, but he really didn't look good this year.

Matt Schaub - No. (1) He hasn't proven anything at all. (2) He is the backup of the Atlanta Falcons for a reason.

Seneca Wallace - No. He doesn't have the arm of Vick nor the legs of Vick. How is he better?

Again, you can't quantify Michael Vick on the basis of statistics alone. His receivers were absolutely, positively awful this year. Sure, he could have thrown it with more touch, but he improved this season in that department and there was no excuse for that many drops. The notion of him being a wide receiver killer is beyond belief.

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by EmpireWF

The only thing I can think of is being the first visiting QB to ever win at Lambeau Field in the playoffs. Other than that, he's been average at best.

The aforementioned playoff win against the Packers remains perhaps Vick's biggest career win as a starter. But Vick deserves little credit for the victory. He finished the game with a 52 percent completion rate, throwing for just 117 yards and one touchdown.

Michael Vick - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

not so quick with that praise my friend

[Lefty Noob]

Okay, only addressing a select few here.

Originally Posted by Notorious C.L.E.

David Garrard - No. Ideal backup, good spot starter, below average long-term solution.

Disagree. I think he proved last year that with a little more time and more snaps in practice, he could be a solid NFL starting QB.

David Carr - No. His confidence is absolutely shot. He is gunshy to the maximum and his dumpoffs don't let the offense get in any kind of rhythm.

Yes, at this point, he's gunshy. He needs to get the heck out of Houston, and get with a good coach and get his career back on track. Remember even Vinnie Testaverde and Trent Dilfer salvaged careers after horrendous starts.

Alex Smith - No. He improved last year, but he was still wildly inconsistent and shouldn't be mentioned with Vick yet.

This is the year, I think, that he proves otherwise. More of a prediction on my part.

Chad Pennington - No. He was one heck of a leader this year, but he was an average quarterback.

I'd take Chad, his leadership abilities, and the way be makes his team better and leads them to wins over Vick's sheer athleticism any day of the week. Intangiables are what give the edge to Pennington.

Jake Delhomme - No. I used to be on his bandwagon as a gamer, but he really didn't look good this year.

Not totally ready to discount him yet. He had one bad season. Can he rebound? That's the million-dollar question.

Matt Schaub - No. (1) He hasn't proven anything at all. (2) He is the backup of the Atlanta Falcons for a reason.

In the action he has seen, which I'll admit is largely preseason, he's proven to me that he runs the Falcons offense better. And he's the back-up because 1. Vick is getting a big money contract, so the owners want him to play and 2. He sells tickets; at least, he was bankable up until he flipped off the Falcon fans this season.

Seneca Wallace - No. He doesn't have the arm of Vick nor the legs of Vick. How is he better?

I'd like to see more of him before deciding definitively one way or the other, but a QB can have a worse arm, worse mobility, better touch passing and better decision making and rate higher in my book. That is where I *think* Wallace may have the edge.

Again, you can't quantify Michael Vick on the basis of statistics alone.

Clearly, I haven't done that -- the stats are there to support what I feel are fairly obviously flaws in his game. Hey, a good coach could sit down, fix these problems and get Vick rolling. But right now, no matter how good of an athlete Michael Vick is (and he is a hell of an athlete), there are a LOT of guys I'd rather have under center running my NFL offense.