[simple simon]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

My friend you live in the dark ages...

my friend, you live in the world of make believe

That's okay, go live in your tried and true world...follow instead of lead...

tried and true has led to the past several Super Bowls

while Vick will "lead" you again to a disappointing season

as for the 72 Dolphins, they are obviously the acception not the rule, if they were the rule it would happen much more often

maybe the Falcons need Shula to coach them

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by simple simon

tried and true has led to the past several Super Bowls

...and that is because...come on...you can say it with me...its because those QBs could not run...if they could they would...

72 Dolphins the exception?...a good running game and a D will beat a hot QB anytime...so I am not sure what you are talking about...look at the Gaints when they beat the Bills...surely not a hot QB...the Steelers 1st two Super Bowls when Bradshaw was not all that great...look it the great Dan Marino, king of kings of drop back passers...amount of Super Bowls won please?...what's that...oh, they could not run the ball...I see...

And how long as Vick been in the league?...at that point Elway had how many Super Bowl wins?...how many?...oh, not until Terrell Davis hooked up with him much, much later huh?...

Maybe you could give me the grand tour of this make believe world you are talking about...three step back throw...repeat 500 times a year...yeah...I am sure there is no way to defend that...

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

And how long as Vick been in the league?...

and how long has Brady been in the league ?

and how many rings does he have ?

Brady rushing attempts: 200
Vick rushing attempts: 444

Brady passing attempts: 2681
Vick passing attempts: 1432

as for hooking up with a decent RB, Dunn has a career average of 4.2 yards per carry........try again

[Lefty Noob]

Wait - I'm confused here. See?

Are we talking about the QBs who like to run, or the need for a running game here. Two entirely different issues. Elway, when he was primarily a scrambling QB, won a few AFC Championships. Elway, the primarily pocket passer with TD serving as a strong supporting running game, won the Super Bowl.

Does a QB need a strong running back/rushing attack to win? Absolutely. But that's not really what we're talking about with Vick -- it's his tendency to leave the pocket too soon and his quarterbacking deficiencies. Er, right?

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by Lefty Noob

But that's not really what we're talking about with Vick -- it's his tendency to leave the pocket too soon and his quarterbacking deficiencies. Er, right?

my original arguementwas that, no matter how you slice it, the Falcons would be better off with a QB other then Vick

or possibly Vick if he runs less and completes more passes

the arguement that they need a good runner is now null and void as they have Dunn

4.2 yards per carry is good enough to get the job done

[Lefty Noob]

Okay, gotcha simon, and I agree. QBs can run, but they need to be able to throw a hell of a lot more consistantly than Vick, and with Dunn and Norwood (who is gonna be fantastic), Atlanta's already enough of a rushing threat. But they don't scare anyone through the air, so I expect they face a lot of 8 or 9 in the box formations.

[Gotham Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by simple simon

my original arguementwas that, no matter how you slice it, the Falcons would be better off with a QB other then Vick

or possibly Vick if he runs less and completes more passes

the arguement that they need a good runner is now null and void as they have Dunn

4.2 yards per carry is good enough to get the job done

You got to be kidding right?...You are comparing the Team that Brady inherited to the Falcons...and that 4.2...lets see...since Vick has come along that average as been over 5.0 twice!..and it's at 4.5 right now...without Vick the man once had a 2.8 in Tampa Bay...and by the way when has 4.2 been bad?

I mean if we are going to have an intelligent convo about this...lets...but to measure the success of the classic drop back passers by Brady and Brady's success independent of the Patriot's team...is well...beyond the realm of reality...say hi to Dorothy, Toto and the Tinman while you are at it... I list a slew of examples...you list Brady and call it reality...yeah...ahhh...sure...

Lets go back to baby steps on this...one, Vick runs cause he can...two, Brady doesn't cause he can't...three, If Vick had the talent that Brady has enjoyed around him, I doubt that their winning perctages would be that much different...four, Vick is the reason the Falcons can run and have run with success the last few years..five, a fair comparison is Vick to Elway (who did not have talent around him when he started)...not Brady...six, for every Brady there is a Tim Couch...a drop back sure thing without much success...seven, the ratio's you list are dead on for the different types of QBs they are and have little to do with the success of either...each just plays the hand they are dealt...

But hey, why am I writing any on this...I think you are locked into a three step drop and throw... to see beyond that is asking a bit of you mate...


And Lefty...tell me about the great corp of Falcon receivers...the one that Vick can use to scare the heck out of the opponents...

You guys kill me...tell me you both can see that the problem is bigger than the fact that Vick can and does run..

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

...three, If Vick had the talent that Brady has enjoyed around him, I doubt that their winning perctages would be that much different...

ok, now youre not dealing in reality

Brady and the talent around him

Antwan Smith........average at best

as for scary receivers

Troy Brown, Branch, Givens.........average could be pushing it

if you recall most said Branch wasnt worth a 1st round pick from the Seahawks.........you cant have it both ways, he is either good or he isnt


as for Vicks talent along with him ?

Dunn.......4.2 yards average rushing
Crumpler.......13.6 yards per catch
Lelie..........18 yards per catch
Jenkins........14.5 yards per catch

every bit as good as the Pats imo

[Lefty Noob]

Originally Posted by Gotham Dark Knight

And Lefty...tell me about the great corp of Falcon receivers...the one that Vick can use to scare the heck out of the opponents...

Like simon says, Crumpler, Lelie and Jenkins are a better receiving corps than Philly has right now, I'd say, talent wise. And yes I know Crumpler is a TE. Anyway, they're also better than the Niners top three, and probably a couple of other teams top 3 pass catchers as well. Lelie's the best to go by, since he's new to the Falcons. In 2004 with Denver, Lelie averaged 67.8 yards per game. With Vick throwing him the ball, he's only managing 34.0 yards per game. He averaged 3 catches per game over the past two seasons and is only averaging about half that in 2006 with the Falcons. Vick isn't going a good enough job getting him the ball.

[soriano33]

Saying that the Falcons would be better off without Vick is absolutely absurd...what have they done before him? Make it to the Super Bowl with Chris Chandler and Jamal Anderson? To have a team completely inferior to John Elways Broncos? Look any team would want Michael Vick's talent on their team. His ability to make a play anywhere on the field at anytime is such a great and hard to come by commodity. The way the Falcons are running their offense now is geared better for Vick's talent, it lets him make more decisions on the field. Look at what he was able to do to the Packers in Lambeau Field in the playoffs a few years ago. The falcons have a great record when he is QBing the team. That says enough in itself. The man is still young and their is plenty of promise for the Falcons in the future

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by soriano33

what have they done before him? Make it to the Super Bowl with Chris Chandler and Jamal Anderson?

you answered your own question

they made it to the Super Bowl

the question should be, what have they accomplished since Vick got there

The way the Falcons are running their offense now is geared better for Vick's talent, it lets him make more decisions on the field.

and he is making great decisions isnt he ?

his completion rate is at 50%

he has 3 TD's and 3 INT's in 5 games

not real great

The man is still young and their is plenty of promise for the Falcons in the future

Big Ben and Tom Brady have both won Super Bowls in much less time in the league then Vick

just how much time does he need ?

[soriano33]

Originally Posted by simple simon

you answered your own question

they made it to the Super Bowl

the question should be, what have they accomplished since Vick got there



and he is making great decisions isnt he ?

his completion rate is at 50%

he has 3 TD's and 3 INT's in 5 games

not real great




Big Ben and Tom Brady have both won Super Bowls in much less time in the league then Vick

just how much time does he need ?

First off, his record as a starter I believe sits at about 37-21-1 (Im not exactly sure of these numbers) and the Falcons have a losing record without Vick. Big Ben and Tom Brady were not expected to be the cornerstone of their franchises, they were put on well developed teams. Strong Defenses and good running games, thats what got Trent Dilfer a Super Bowl. And as far as how much time does he need? How much time did Dan Marino need? Lets see he is the greatest statistical QB of all time and never won the Big one.....Elway? He didnt win the big one until being in the league for what 15 years? Like Elway, this team is being built around Vick, the team centers on Vick. Big Ben and Brady were placed right into Super Bowl caliber teams without having to experience the team growing around them

[simple simon]

Originally Posted by soriano33

Big Ben and Brady were placed right into Super Bowl caliber teams without having to experience the team growing around them

Brady and the Pats were just lucky to have an abundence of talent eh ?

on what planet ?

Antwan Smith.....and those receivers ?

i hardly think so

Crumpler and Dunn are as good as any receiver and RB the Pats have had in recent years

Vick just isnt getting the job done

you said it yourself, Chandler led the Falcons to a Super Bowl

[soriano33]

Lets see whos foot won them the Super Bowls? And because the defense was able to limit the Greatest Show on Turf's offense for that first one....dont give me the Pro Patriot outlook on this...take yourself out of those shoes for a minute...who is more valuable to their franchise? Brady was plopped into the lineup after Bledsoe QBed the team the entire season. And last time I checked the Falcon Defense throughout Vick's tenure has been mostly average at best and certainly not of the Patriots caliber. I dont know exactly what you want Vick to do short of winning the Super Bowl to prove the Falcons need him. Plain and simple their record is better with him than wihtout him, this means they are worse without him. Which answers the question are the Falcons better without him? Absolutely not. I would sure love Vick on my team

[The Franchise13]

HE doesn't like to throw but he has gotten older and when he runs and he gets hit he either gets injured or fumbles the ball and when he thorws he throws interceptions